[NL20-NL50] NL50 SH AK top 2

    • Schelles
      Schelles
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.07.2007 Posts: 2,177
      Another AK hand here :D .
      The BU plays 30/14 with 3 AF.

      I think he can play draws like that on the flop, so I call. The turn gives me top 2, but then he fires a pot bet.. Do I call? Raise? Fold?

      The river is interesting because we are still deep. I decided to bet small and rep sth like Kx or Ax & give him a chance to shove his draws & sets. But it might be better just to check and let him fire at it. What do you think? I am repping pretty strong on the turn when I call his pot bet and I wanted to show him some weakness..

      PokerStars - €0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      UTG: €59.74
      MP: €50.00
      Hero (CO): €94.64
      BTN: €96.54
      SB: €53.60
      BB: €34.60

      SB posts SB €0.25, BB posts BB €0.50

      Pre Flop: (pot: €0.75) Hero has A:heart: K:club:

      fold, fold, Hero raises to €1.50, BTN calls €1.50, fold, fold

      Flop: (€3.75, 2 players) 7:spade: K:spade: 8:club:
      Hero bets €2.36, BTN raises to €8.58, Hero calls €6.22

      Turn: (€20.91, 2 players) A:diamond:
      Hero checks, BTN bets €19.97, Hero calls €19.97

      River: (€60.85, 2 players) K:heart:
      Hero bets €16.50, BTN raises to €66.49 and is all-in, Hero calls €48.09 and is all-in
  • 16 replies
    • Verum
      Verum
      Black
      Joined: 07.03.2007 Posts: 1,309
      I am actually inclined to fold the turn.

      He really looks like he wants to make your draws pay, so I am almost certain he has a STRONG made hand. 87s might not want to bomb the pot like that, so A Set, A7 or A8 are the msot likely hands....depending on his preflop range and his style of raising flops.

      Your river play might induce something from a spewy guy with a monster draw gone wrong; however, I rarely put him on that. I think a set will bet/call the river anyway and 87 isn't going to call. So I would probably x/raise.

      If he has the case AA, nice hand...
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Schelles,

      Rather just Bet/Fold the flop, whatever he has he will have decent equity against you on such a flop and you are also going to be OOP. Very tough to continue as well on the turn even if you hit your Ace or whatsoever K, rarely going to be good there.

      Although as played the river might be more reasonable just to let him bluff again instead donking like that, he ain't bluffing vs you here that often, if he has a made hand he is going to Bet the river anyways.

      Best Regards.
    • Verum
      Verum
      Black
      Joined: 07.03.2007 Posts: 1,309
      Dear Veriz,

      I have been observing the hand evaluation forum quite a bit over the past days and it seems to me that you basically advise to fold to any sort of raise(overexagerated statement). In this spot for example, versus a really aggressive opponent, who almost never folds the flop, don't you think that we are way too exploitable if we fold TPTK here?.

      In general, do you think that raises at the 50nl level are so straightforward, that we should fold everything but sets unless we have great reads?
    • Verum
      Verum
      Black
      Joined: 07.03.2007 Posts: 1,309
      .
    • Schelles
      Schelles
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.07.2007 Posts: 2,177
      Hi there,

      Well, I don't agree either with bet/folding here. He will probably raise any flush draw here, as well as his oesd's, along with value hands like sets & 2 pair. His turn bet is nasty. But I still think I have the best hand often enough. he could have Ax with a flush draw, a combo draw like JTs or T9s, a worse two pair & sets obv.

      When I flat his potbet on the turn. I'm basically only repping the hand that I actually have. I'm betting for induce here because I want to show some weakness and make it seem like a do only have Kx or Ax. So he can valueshove his sets and blufshove his missed draws more easily.

      This bet is almost always a blockbet and means that I'm going to fold to a raise. Nice balance as well.

      Why wouldn't you put him on a monster draw btw?

      Kind regards,
    • Verum
      Verum
      Black
      Joined: 07.03.2007 Posts: 1,309
      Originally posted by Schelles
      Hi there,

      Well, I don't agree either with bet/folding here. He will probably raise any flush draw here, as well as his oesd's, along with value hands like sets & 2 pair. His turn bet is nasty. But I still think I have the best hand often enough. he could have Ax with a flush draw, a combo draw like JTs or T9s, a worse two pair & sets obv.

      I actually think that he will raise even more...from the way you describe him to me, he seems to be quite similar in style to me. I would raise you there with almost any hand, because I doubt, that I have to balance so much 2 stacks deep IPO. Given that you are 2 stacks deep, you won't go over the top lightly ad will call so many draws, that you will x/f the turn with, cap your range because yu would 3bet sets and basically be left with draws and weakish made hands(given our stacks), which leaves me in a great position.


      When I flat his potbet on the turn. I'm basically only repping the hand that I actually have. I'm betting for induce here because I want to show some weakness and make it seem like a do only have Kx or Ax. So he can valueshove his sets and blufshove his missed draws more easily.
      Would you play it like that? I don't see regs on 50nl doing that tbh.


      Why wouldn't you put him on a monster draw btw
      His sizing...two things are accomplished by his sizing.
      1. the pot gets huge
      2. you won't stick around with draws to suck him out.

      Poker still is an emotional game...especially at micro-low stakes. He doesn't want to get coolered...probably couldn't fold to it if he obviously did... So he tries to prevent it.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Verum
      Dear Veriz,

      I have been observing the hand evaluation forum quite a bit over the past days and it seems to me that you basically advise to fold to any sort of raise(overexagerated statement). In this spot for example, versus a really aggressive opponent, who almost never folds the flop, don't you think that we are way too exploitable if we fold TPTK here?.

      In general, do you think that raises at the 50nl level are so straightforward, that we should fold everything but sets unless we have great reads?
      Lets ask a simple question here, why would you assume he is aggressive?

      Why would you risk with almost 200bb here? And you are putting yourself exactly into such a spot where you just don't know what to do on the turn and calling down his huge Bet on maybe even a blank. What are you going to hope that he does on the turn? Checks behind?

      For the guy it's also a perfect spot to Raise vs such cause whatever he has has decent equity against us whilst he also has position. Which means we are rarely going to end up with huge profit here. Our Bet/Calling range is MOST of the time very weak and hardly exploitable by which I mean it's very easy to make such a range to fold. So I still go for bet/Fold the turn without having any backdoor FD or whatsoever.
    • Verum
      Verum
      Black
      Joined: 07.03.2007 Posts: 1,309
      Originally posted by veriz

      Lets ask a simple question here, why would you assume he is aggressive?

      30/14, AF:3
      he is facing more cbets than making themwhich should keep his AF low unless he is aggressive, or folds all the time to those cbets, which wold be a huge leak and probAbly mentioned by OP.
      He can't have that much on all of those flops where he is facing a cbet, since he isn't nitty....he sees flops without initiative and with an extremely wide range.


      Originally posted by veriz
      Why would you risk with almost 200bb here? And you are putting yourself exactly into such a spot where you just don't know what to do on the turn and calling down his huge Bet on maybe even a blank. What are you going to hope that he does on the turn? Checks behind?
      If I fold AK here, I become damn exploitable, or I can't cbet here and that gives him a free roll with so many draws out there.


      Originally posted by veriz
      For the guy it's also a perfect spot to Raise vs such cause whatever he has has decent equity against us whilst he also has position. Which means we are rarely going to end up with huge profit here. Our Bet/Calling range is MOST of the time very weak and hardly exploitable by which I mean it's very easy to make such a range to fold.
      I completely agree with you; however, this does become a leveling thing, where I think that he thinks it is a perfect bluff spot to raise the flop, which should actually widen my range with which I continue and not narrow it down...shouldn't it?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      30/14, AF:3

      Taking a look at those stats is just wrong, he can practically have just 50 hands here as well which means AF is never going to be correct and instead we should be using AFq.

      If I fold AK here, I become damn exploitable, or I can't cbet here and that gives him a free roll with so many draws out there.

      Exploitable by folding AK here? I would like to hear how can you be exploitable by that. Lets assume you see me folding in that spot, why would you think I ever have AK here or even Kx?

      I completely agree with you; however, this does become a leveling thing, where I think that he thinks it is a perfect bluff spot to raise the flop, which should actually widen my range with which I continue and not narrow it down...shouldn't it?

      Why would it be perfect spot to bluff if you have 0 equity yourself, rather I'd say it's waste of money. And leveling thing on NL50? Doubt that a 30/14 guy would ever understand the game in those spots.
    • Verum
      Verum
      Black
      Joined: 07.03.2007 Posts: 1,309
      I agree to all of your points...and will only hit "advise the judge{...}", so you can receive my thanks.

      Thanks for clarifying all of this so patiently.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Verum
      I agree to all of your points...and will only hit "advise the judge{...}", so you can receive my thanks.

      Thanks for clarifying all of this so patiently.
      Feel free to ask any questions you have according the hand, no need to worry how much time it takes for me. :) Few more questions wont really disturb my work.
    • Mauzer77
      Mauzer77
      Silver
      Joined: 16.03.2008 Posts: 1,927
      Dear veriz,

      Against an agressive guy who let's say raises cbet a lot and bets vs missed cbet 90% isn't it better to check/call flop to avoid this situation?

      You won't lose value from Kx and won't give a free card for draws because he will bet them on flop, so it's actually doesn't matter if you bet or he bets on flop. You also keep a lot of bluffs in. This way you don't have to worry about bet/fold on any street and you can make an easy calldown or valuebet river if he chechks so you still have 2 street value.

      Thanks
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Cukk
      Dear veriz,

      Against an agressive guy who let's say raises cbet a lot and bets vs missed cbet 90% isn't it better to check/call flop to avoid this situation?

      You won't lose value from Kx and won't give a free card for draws because he will bet them on flop, so it's actually doesn't matter if you bet or he bets on flop. You also keep a lot of bluffs in. This way you don't have to worry about bet/fold on any street and you can make an easy calldown or valuebet river if he chechks so you still have 2 street value.

      Thanks
      Yep, that's very good point-out, that's usually a line I really like to take vs those agro maniacs and it's very effective. The same applies even for single raised pots when for example we are SB vs BB and we have some mediocre hand as J9 for example on J62, it's more effective and bigger value from him by Check/Calling than CBetting and facing a raise. You wont get value from him a lot more than 1-2 streets, most likely not even 2 streets.
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Vs those very aggro oppo's just 3bet/broke OTF??

      100bb deep it is no doubt broke OTF I suppose?
    • PokerPro
      PokerPro
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2005 Posts: 72
      Hey veriz,

      I agree on loosing 200bb in this kind of spot is terrible. What do you think about a 100bb deep spot? In my opinion there are enough flushdraw or straightdraw combinations for 4betting for value isn't it? We have about 15 value combinations against we lose but hm say about 40-50 staight and flushdraw combinations we are 50% or ahead of?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Yep, correct 200bb is way too trouble-some for us and nor even don't have backdoors draws. Although for 100bb I'd most likely do it and 3bet and go broke if I assume he is raising a lot with his draws etc type of holdings and maybe even pure bluffs.