Fixed Limit Future

    • Paluzzo
      Paluzzo
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.12.2009 Posts: 593
      Hi,

      I begin playing FL in May this year. I went from the 0.02/0.04 to the 0.10/0.20 FR.

      After that i tryed the NLHE. I made this decision because:
      I want to make a part time from poker, and on the NL i'll have more fish, more people playing in more sites than in FL.
      So, my thinking was that i've to be were the money are.

      I've read in some foruns, like the 2+2, about the lost of interest in FL from the rooms.

      I'm learning the NL, but i prefered more the FL games.

      I'm asking, if you think that the FL will continue in the future, and if at the higher limits, (0.5/1, 1/2), you can win $ as you would win at same level in NL. (With the same ammount of skill)

      I hope i can express my point of view, and sorry about any mistake in my english.

      Thank You for you opinions and help.
  • 25 replies
    • redskwerl
      redskwerl
      Black
      Joined: 03.03.2008 Posts: 3,802
      FL is going to be a viable source of part-time income for many years.. in particular, I don't think 0.5/1 SH will ever become unbeatable... there are still so many terrible terrible players on those limits.
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      Agree with redskwerl on this. Also had an interesting talk about it with dats, and I'd like to present the summary of it.

      Let's say we want to look at our profits in terms of $/100 hands played. Given the required bankroll size for playing a certain limit, we will play on different stakes in NL and FL. For example, with a bankroll of $600, we can easily play .5/1 FL, and with a 30BI BRM we can play NL20. If you have a profit of 1BB/100 = $1/100 in FL, you need to win 5bb/100 in NL that is certainly achievable, however I think it's way easier to be a 1BB/100 winner in LHE than being a 5bb/100 winner in NLHE.

      Of course, you most likely want to use $/hr instead of $/100, and since there are less decision points in NLHE, you can play far more tables comfortably, that may result having a better hourly playing NLHE. That said, I believe FLHE still has great profitability, and it's definitely not far from NLHE in this way. Although I believe you can find greater edge in any other game presented online than these 2, but those games usually run infrequently (aside from PLO).

      So I think if it's a question between NLHE and FLHE, only your goals, visions, and love of one or the other can decide which one you should choose, because that will improve your winrate much more, than the statistical difference between the possible winrates.

      I hope I could help, let me know if you have questions.
    • Paluzzo
      Paluzzo
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.12.2009 Posts: 593
      Hey,

      Thank you both for your explanations/help. I'm now better aware of my possibilities, and most likely i'll continue to study what i like more, the FLHE.

      Regards
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,084
      FL was pretty big at Full Tilt. If the americans are ever allowed back, then I'm sure that FL traffic will be great in the long term. (I've been playing NL lately because there is absolutely no FL action at Ladbrokes. I actually find NL quite boring.)

      /Johan = :f_confused:
    • Paluzzo
      Paluzzo
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.12.2009 Posts: 593
      Hi YohanN7,

      We hope that them came back on scene. I worked on NL, and passed from NL2 to NL5, but i rather prefer the FL. Is different.

      Why wont you play on Stars or Party?
    • Masqb
      Masqb
      Black
      Joined: 23.02.2008 Posts: 1,753
      IMO the best way to estimate how good are the games in particular type of poker is to look at number of videos made by people winning at med/high stakes.
      There are quite a lot made in PLO, only few in NL and none in any other. When was the last time you saw new video made by somebody winning at 5/T or higher?
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      Well, I made one today.:) (By all means I'm not a proven winner at 5/T, my current stake, but I beat 3/6 and the player pool is not that different IMO.) Also I believe Boomer could easily do it, I don't know anything about his results, but given his videos I've seen he has to be able to beat 5/T for sure. Also take a look at Hood, MisterBunny (both retired sadly, but made vids in the last 6 months), etc.

      Also I don't find your argument valid for multiple reasons:

      1) LHE education is being neglected doesn't equal to the games being unbeatable. Sites don't involve new coaches, since they already have the coaches for it, and since nobody raises their voice against them, the sites get basically no negative feedback on the guys (and given that most people play NL or PLO and have absolutely no clue about LHE, they cannot judge themselves if the coach is good).

      2) Results I think are secondary in poker education. Being a great coach means being a player and a theorist and a teacher/educator. Let's say one excels in the theorist and the educator part, but mediocre in the player part (you can't synchronize the theory and the play, you have tilt issues, or you just don't table select that well). He's going to make a much better coach than the once excels in the playing division, but not the other two. So I believe results should be secondary in that sense, and just making sure the coach doesn't talk bullshit (like some of the graph-masters do) is way more important.

      3) Also, in non-NLHE and non-PLO games the player pool is waaaay smaller, so you expose yourself much more by revealing your game by making a video of your play in LHE or smaller games.

      Therefore I think your argument is invalid, sir.:)
    • Masqb
      Masqb
      Black
      Joined: 23.02.2008 Posts: 1,753
      Originally posted by madorjan
      Results I think are secondary in poker education.So I believe results should be secondary in that sense, and just making sure the coach doesn't talk bullshit (like some of the graph-masters do) is way more important.
      IMO this is the main reason why quality of videos at PS is so low right now. There are plenty of theorists sitting in Gibraltar managing education who believe the exact same thing.

      Good players (who I know) don't even watch Boomer, Cornholio or whoever is making vids right now so there is nobody to judge content of those videos (it's easy too fool 0.25/0.5 player into believing your content is a 'hot stuff')


      I have no idea who you are but let's put 10/20 instead of 5/T and it takes you and Boomer out of equation for sure. When you improve enough and start playing there you'll stop making vids or giving out free coachings for sure.

      Terrorblade is a good example, he managed to get to higher stakes and realized how bad are those games and how scarce is the fish. (dunno what reasons he gave but I wouldn't believe him if he said sth like 'I have to focus on other things in life besides poker')

      Fixed Limit theorists making vids for PS aren't that great. Best 'GTO' player in the history (IMO) was Hawrilenko and he was also the best FL player for quite a long time.

      Lastly, you are FL coach so your comments can be a little bit biased :P (you'd rather see more people playing FL so you can keep your job)

      BTW IMO there is still a chance to move up in FL. If you love this game - play it. But if you're asking FLvsNL there is no way you should pick FL. I don't recommend PLO for beginners cuz rake there just seems to be impossible to beat at micros.
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      I'm a LHE coach for sure, however the numbers up there weren't biased at all I think. If I'd say yeah, LHE is great game, and you can win a ton of money, you could say that I'm biased, but presenting actual numbers and values cannot represent any kind of bias. (Also, if you don't believe my numbers, look it up yourself, so you'd have your own view of the situation.)

      Your perception of the Gib office is quite different from mine. Not in LHE, but overall I think more of the result-players are involved than the actual theorists (just look at the way they present new coaches to us - picture + graph + results). In LHE thankfully it's a bit different, given Boomer excels in every departement I think, and he released the most amount of vids lately.

      I don't know what good players you've talked with, but the fact that they don't watch these vids is because they're not the target audience. However if they miss the game theory vids of Boomer, then it's their loss (given they're probably the best ones about the subject I've seen online, and I think I've seen 90%+ of LHE videos out there).
      I myself don't process that many vids at all, however I still watch them just to see where education stands at the moment.

      Why do you think I'll stop making vids when I reach T/TT? Well, it may be a bit different in English or German, but for my community (Hungarian) I produce videos from the smallest stakes, and I'm not planning to stop when I move up another limit. I just can see no reason stopping. And I don't really give free coachings to anyone right now, so that will obviously be true.:)

      Also, let's make a big distinction. Players have skill edges. Some players think it's hard to get to a level to beat 5/T LHE. Personally, I find that 5/T (and higher) regulars make some big mistakes in general. That includes me per se, but I still think you can have a solid edge over regs there too, if you work hard on your game. You'll not win money off of them (post-rake LDO), but you will make them pay your rake basically, that is a huge win for you in the long run. Now for some (or a lot) finding these edges are hard or not worthwhile, so they move onto PLO or other games, or just quit poker. That doesn't mean the games are unbeatable.

      The best GTO-thinker of his time was Hawrilenko for sure. However I believe games have evolved to the state now, where he might not be the best today (look at KPR or Newall for example). I won't make a stand for or against PS LHE coaches, especially because that wasn't the main question. However once again, the best videos on GTO/balanced play are on PS for sure.

      Also, theorist doesn't necessarily equal GTO-thinkers. Just look at Bunny, who was probably the most exploitative guy I've ever seen making vids, and he himself is a great theorist obviously.

      And if we're talking about beginners, I truly believe (biassed or not) that learning FL as your first game is much more useful, than NL. I know, I started of with NL, but understood the main concepts in poker through FL, since it's a purer, game theoretically easier game than NL.

      So once again, I think there is good money to be made in LHE, definitely not as much as could be made in PLO, however I think for some goals (e.g. learning for beginners) LHE is far the best option, and it doesn't fall behind in any departements (profitability for example). (Also it's pretty obvious you yourself don't make arguments, just counter-arguments, so I'd like to hear why do you think NL is way better choice for beginners.)
    • Masqb
      Masqb
      Black
      Joined: 23.02.2008 Posts: 1,753
      Originally posted by madorjan
      Why do you think I'll stop making vids when I reach T/TT?
      You will see how many regs per fish there are and you realize that it's not worth teaching new players to get there for those few $ PS pays you for a video or for public coaching (they are those free coachings )

      Originally posted by madorjan
      Some players think it's hard to get to a level to beat 5/T LHE.

      Nope it's very easy, despite the fact any active PS coach can't make it. :coolface: but everybody else should be able to do it.
      IMO it's very hard to get to 5/T and even if you get there you still make less than good NL100 ZOOM player

      Originally posted by madorjan
      So once again, I think there is good money to be made in LHE,
      It seems we have very different definition of 'good money'. Grinding 2/4 and 3/6 for 1-2BB/100 (rakeback included) is not good money. And most if not every winning reg at those stakes has played at these stakes for 2 or more years. And these games are getting worse every month.


      My point is that a good way (probably the best way) to determine how 'easy' is the game is to look at how many people (who make serious money in this game) are willing to share some of their ideas. If a game is not very lively you won't see anybody making vids or even talking strategy with randoms on the internet. (LHE is not the only game like that, same thing applies to Razz, Stud, Draw games etc)
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      I'm not gonna stop making videos, because I know for a fact how hard I worked even after all the education I got from good players to be able to beat the games. By educating people you don't make them better at the table. You make them smarter, that they have to realize how to apply at the tables. You give the tools, not the results. (Look at Combonator for example - it makes calculations easier than ever - will it kill the game? No, because no one knows how to use it properly.) I've been thinking about this a lot in the near past, and I think just a small amount of people are dedicated and "brave" enough to try and make significant changes to their game (that's why you see a lot of guys playing the same like in 2008), and only the guys who are willing to put enough effort in their game, and basically figure it out anyway will be able to massively profit from them.

      I wouldn't say it's very hard to beat or get to 5/T, obviously you have to put in a lot of work, but it's not like you have to study for years and lock yourself into a monastery to be able to beat 5/T. It's an achievement for sure, but won't make you the best of the best.

      We actually may have a different definition of good money, given you're from a different country and probably different background than me, I think a 1-2BB/100 at 3/6 is, well, good enough money (but obviously depends on your and your family's needs). Also 2 years ago I was playing .25/.5, and I think I can beat the 3/6 games quite easily.

      I get your point about not giving out information, and I think you mean the profitability of the game, more than the easiness (because a lot of games are hard, just have a small player pool), and that may easily be the case in MSLHE too. However take a look at most regulars, that 1-2 years ago were playing HS and wouldn't even consider playing 5/T. Ok, BF happened and all that, but those guys just didn't educate themselves, and therefore they started losing/not winning that much. No video will help them, because if it would, they would've figured it out themselves.

      Just on that note - I see in my community how small or huge the effects of my education can be. There are guys, who are just killing limit after limit, and there are guys, who also watch my videos and are at my coachings, and stuck at the same limit they were a year ago (we're talking about micro/small stakes here). I cannot change that, I'm a tool they can use to get better, or to make the excuse that they tried. They didn't. Neither did the ex-HS guys playing 3/6 now.
    • Masqb
      Masqb
      Black
      Joined: 23.02.2008 Posts: 1,753
      When you play 10/20+ people not only watch to learn how to play but there are also people who watch only to learn how you play. Normally, it takes thousands of hands to estimate strategy of an opponent but when you make few videos everybody can almost exactly know how you play, what stat's do you use in your HUD, etc.

      Combonator didn't destroy games but your vids can cost you a ton of money and this is why you'll stop making them.
    • Rantrave
      Rantrave
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.04.2009 Posts: 8,954
      What means GTO

      and who was Hawrlienko?
    • Tarhonya
      Tarhonya
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.07.2010 Posts: 694
      Masqb, I feel your point of view, I really do, but you have to accept the single fact that the number of people who's "beating" 5/T is so little that pokerstrategy's more likely to earn significantly more through 1/2 2/4 3/6 players than they do through 5/T+ players.

      That said, plus what you said makes your point quite logical.

      On the other hand, you have to realize that not everybody's obsessed with their $/hour.

      Like madorjan and Boomer, I don't know a lot about them, but I'm fairly certain that they'd keep educating players even if they'd play the absolute nosebleeds.

      Originally posted by Masqb
      IMO the best way to estimate how good are the games in particular type of poker is to look at number of videos made by people winning at med/high stakes.
      I firmly believe that it has nothing to do with the "softness" of a particular game. It only reflects it's popularity and even the slightest use of common sense dictates that any and all game types are quite beatable, and even though there are differences (even in $/hour), the one you enjoy the most will guaranteed to earn you more.
    • datsmahname
      datsmahname
      Global
      Joined: 23.11.2009 Posts: 1,366
      FL is not dead. There are lots of guys who work hard that benefit from FL hold'em games.

      NL is a great game though so whichever you prefer and enjoy is probably going to be the one you'll enjoy learning the most.

      If you work hard and dedicate yourself to constant improvement it'll pay off in the long run.
    • datsmahname
      datsmahname
      Global
      Joined: 23.11.2009 Posts: 1,366
      Originally posted by Rantrave
      What means GTO
      game theory optimal.
    • sim5sim5
      sim5sim5
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.10.2011 Posts: 655
      Originally posted by datsmahname
      FL is not dead. There are lots of guys who work hard that benefit from FL hold'em games.

      NL is a great game though so whichever you prefer and enjoy is probably going to be the one you'll enjoy learning the most.

      If you work hard and dedicate yourself to constant improvement it'll pay off in the long run.
      very well said +11111
    • taavi1337
      taavi1337
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      Joined: 29.05.2009 Posts: 2,920
      shhh! it's dead ;)
    • Boomer2k10
      Boomer2k10
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.09.2010 Posts: 2,551
      Originally posted by taavi1337
      shhh! it's dead ;)
      ^^^^ THIS!!
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