Busting out of freerolls with AA

    • AFFROPANDA
      AFFROPANDA
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.08.2012 Posts: 6
      Hey Guys,

      This is the first hand I've posted here, so bear with me on the dodgy formatting...

      My problem is this: I've been getting into a lot of the $1K depositor freerolls on PokerStars lately and I've noticed a disturbing trend. When I bust out, it's often after going all in on a pocket pair of aces, being called by a trash hand, and then losing to (what seems to me like) a statistically improbable number of miraculous straights, trips and flushes. Anyway, the most recent example:

      *** HOLE CARDS ***
      Dealt to AFFROPANDA [Ad Ac]
      dimon20dimko: folds; vuphuong7420: folds; tavs kaps: calls 20; Shkaraputa: folds; Eme54: calls 20; EatCakeKid: calls 20; AFFROPANDA: raises 120 to 140; Xavi629: calls 130; gumeni xxx: folds; tavs kaps: folds; Eme54: calls 120; EatCakeKid: calls 120
      *** FLOP *** [Th Jh 4s]
      Xavi629: bets 640; Eme54: calls 640; EatCakeKid: calls 640; AFFROPANDA: raises 402 to 1042 and is all-in; Xavi629: calls 402; Eme54: calls 392 and is all-in; EatCakeKid: calls 392 and is all-in
      *** TURN *** [Th Jh 4s] [8s]
      *** RIVER *** [Th Jh 4s 8s] [6s]
      *** SHOW DOWN ***

      Xavi629: shows [Jc Qd] (a pair of Jacks);AFFROPANDA: shows [Ad Ac] (a pair of Aces); AFFROPANDA collected 20 from side pot; Eme54: shows [3s Ts] (a flush, Ten high); EatCakeKid: shows [2h 3h] (high card Jack); Eme54 collected 4764 from main pot; EatCakeKid finished the tournament in 9744th place

      I feel as though I played this hand exactly the way I should have; raising preflop and then pushing all in after the bet on the flop to protect my overpair from what I saw as a potential monster draw, with my fingers crossed that Xavi629 hadn't flopped a set... Am I right?

      I was utterly astounded by the trash my opponents went all in with, and at least a little angry that my pair of aces had been upstaged by someone who limped in with 3Ts! Unfortunately, this isn't the first, nor, I expect, the last time I will bust out of a freeroll with a pair of aces in the hole.

      I'm anticipating a lot of "sh*t happens" responses, which is what I chalked it up to - but is there some kind of secret trick to working with the completely unexpected, batsh*t plays you come up against in freerolls that I'm missing?

      Any criticism or advice would be very much appreciated!

      Thanks,
      AFFROPANDA
  • 15 replies
    • Backcushion
      Backcushion
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2007 Posts: 816
      MTT's are very swingy, you can go hundreds of hundreds games w/o cashing.
      Only advice to give you is: get used to it.
    • NutzAreOk
      NutzAreOk
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2011 Posts: 7,409
      Originally posted by Backcushion
      MTT's are very swingy, you can go hundreds of hundreds games w/o cashing.
      +1

      Specially in some megafield freeroll tournaments on Stars.
    • NinjaG4
      NinjaG4
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.03.2011 Posts: 30
      This happens to me all the time(@ stars)too.Also not just at freerolls and many times b4 final table...Makes me wanna vomit
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,164
      This happened to me last night. So risky on the bubble, but it was still a sick suckout.


      PokerStars - Hold'em Tournament - $500/1000 Blinds - 8 Players
      Hand Converter by Pokerhand.org

      KOCKAPOKER (CO): $2,840
      bambolin1 (BTN): $1,810
      Mr.Tsuba (SB): $7,688
      lenghel (BB): $26,121
      laz1961 (UTG): $3,603
      tigerlove54 (UTG+1): $10,786
      superjaimie (MP1): $26,329
      cepo-yo (MP2): $7,186

      Pre-flop: Dealt to laz1961 A:spade: A:club:
      laz1961 raises to $3,503 and is all-in, tigerlove54 calls $3,503, (6 folds)

      Flop: ($9,306) K:diamond: Q:heart: 4:club: (2 Players)

      Turn: ($9,306) T:club: (2 Players)

      River: ($9,306) 2:club: (2 Players)

      laz1961 Showed A:spade: A:club:
      tigerlove54 Showed Q:club: 7:club:
      tigerlove54 wins $9,306


      84.17% preflop
      77.98% after flop
      70.45% after turn

      I find this hand to be typical of PokerStars' incredible bubble suckouts. Dominating hands are less dominating and I estimate in this situation my AA drops from 85% to around 60% with KK and KA dropping to under 50%.
      This is not a one off. This has been happening for the 2 years I've been playing on Stars, sometimes almost a daily occurence.

      I don't know what advice to give, apart from just playing live poker (where the cards don't know you're on the bubble as opposed to software that does).

      To me it was idiotic that someone would call off a third of their stack to call a shove with Q7 suited particularly on the bubble.

      It was a 360 man .10c SnG with 48 players left with 36 to get paid.

      So it doesn't just happen in freerolls.
    • gordy1957
      gordy1957
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2010 Posts: 325
      you got AA in the early stages of a freeroll just go all in pre you will get called plenty of times with trash hands.
    • boboistina
      boboistina
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.05.2008 Posts: 271
      People tend to call very loosely at the start of an MTT especially if it's a freeroll. They're usually in "i have 3000 chips fck 120 i'll call maybe i hit something" mindset, and when 1 calls usually more will follow and all of a sudden your aces are not that good.

      Shoving aces in that phase is not a bad idea cause there will be people who'll try their luck with Ax KJ+ QJ or a PP, and most of the time you'll have only 1 caller and a great chance to double up.
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,164
      Originally posted by boboistina
      People tend to call very loosely at the start of an MTT especially if it's a freeroll. They're usually in "i have 3000 chips fck 120 i'll call maybe i hit something" mindset, and when 1 calls usually more will follow and all of a sudden your aces are not that good.

      Shoving aces in that phase is not a bad idea cause there will be people who'll try their luck with Ax KJ+ QJ or a PP, and most of the time you'll have only 1 caller and a great chance to double up.
      Agree totally. Early in MTTs you have to be prepared to drop your premium hands if you can't get heads up.

      Once it becomes three handed you are only flipping.
    • AFFROPANDA
      AFFROPANDA
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.08.2012 Posts: 6
      So should I have gone all in earlier to knock out more of the limpers pre? Or was going all in after the flop a bad move? I did think about just calling the bet on the flop and seeing out the rest hand as cheaply as possible, but I figured anyone who had KQh would risk half their stack to see out the monster draw.
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      Originally posted by AFFROPANDA
      but I figured anyone who had KQh would risk half their stack to see out the monster draw.
      board: th jh 4s
      Hand Equity Wins Ties
      kh qh 49.39% 489 0
      ad ac 50.61% 501 0

      [propokertools.com]

      if u put your opponent on this hand you have to ask yourself do you really want to flip for ur stack at this point?
    • AFFROPANDA
      AFFROPANDA
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.08.2012 Posts: 6
      Erf, yeah. I'm still clueless when it comes to hand equity etc - makes me a pretty poor postflop player!

      So it might have been prudent to fold the aces in the face of a large postflop bet with a draw heavy board?
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      Originally posted by AFFROPANDA
      Erf, yeah. I'm still clueless when it comes to hand equity etc - makes me a pretty poor postflop player!

      So it might have been prudent to fold the aces in the face of a large postflop bet with a draw heavy board?
      i dnt rly know tbh, im far from an expert... buuuuut its a freeroll and u have aces imagine all the crap you will get called by lol! including all kinds of draws and pairs with the occasional 2 pair or set. my spider senses are telling me its a value shove. id say you played the hand well.

      maybe someone more knowledgable will weigh in.
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      i do think that you are over analysing a bit... freerolls are just about waiting for strong starting hands and taking people to value town (which is pretty much what u did). then the inevitable sigh, another crazy call sucks out on you, then you move on because fuck it its a freeroll and crazy shit happens all the time.
    • AFFROPANDA
      AFFROPANDA
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.08.2012 Posts: 6
      Originally posted by badgerer
      i do think that you are over analysing a bit... freerolls are just about waiting for strong starting hands and taking people to value town (which is pretty much what u did). then the inevitable sigh, another crazy call sucks out on you, then you move on because fuck it its a freeroll and crazy shit happens all the time.
      Best advice so far :P
    • Asaban
      Asaban
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,234
      First of all:
      Hi Affropanda and welcome to the forums. Hope you like what you see and will come back from time to time. If you have any questions feel free to ask!


      Talking about your questions:
      Originally posted by badgerer
      Originally posted by AFFROPANDA
      but I figured anyone who had KQh would risk half their stack to see out the monster draw.
      board: th jh 4s
      Hand Equity Wins Ties
      kh qh 49.39% 489 0
      ad ac 50.61% 501 0

      [propokertools.com]

      if u put your opponent on this hand you have to ask yourself do you really want to flip for ur stack at this point?
      Even if this is the only reasonable hand your opponent could ever have (and it's not) you would have to call. Sure - it is a flip - but you already invested some chips and the pot is quite big. Therefore you don't even need 50% to make a profitable call. You get the odds to call with way less equity.

      If you want to know how to evaluate your hands better you should try out the pokerstrategy.com Equilab. It is a software tool that helps you to analyse your hand against an opponents' range. You may find it if you follow this link:
      Pokerstrategy.com Equilab

      The software is for free and easy to use. I really recommend an extensive practise with this tool since knowledge about your equity is absolutely crucial in every part of a tournament.

      If you need further information on how to evaluate your equity and how to know how much equity you need you may find good articles in our strategy-column. A very basic article about odds and outs can be found in the Bigstack-Strategy-section:
      Mathematics of Poker: Odds and Outs

      If you are not sure if you played a hand right you can use our hand evaluation forums. Our professional hand judges will have a look at every hand that is posted and will provide you with good feedback on your play. The mtt hand evaluation forums can be found here:
      Hand evaluations up to 12$

      If you need further information just post your questions :)

      Regards,
      Asaban
    • Patapio
      Patapio
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2012 Posts: 11
      AFRO, you're not alone. I used to play the freerolls everyday, 888, PartyPoker.... and I was always looking to get as far as possible playing good hands and paying attention on my position and what my opponents were doing....

      Then I started to follow since the begining of the tournament (by opening their tables from the lobby) those players that had since the start a triple up or a quadruple up within 3 minutes. Well.... donk donk donk, there's no other word for that. And they keep acting like that.

      A good number of times I've done well enough to be at the first 50th places (out of sometimes 4k people) and 2 times I've been in the final table of these tournaments, my best result was the 4th place.

      Here I have to tell you, in these 2 times in the final table, both times I lost for the chip leader in a ridiculous way:

      1st : I had JJ, I raise and got re-raised all in to what??? Q 5 OFF SUIT!!! Busted by runner runner runner runner flush draw!

      2nd: I had AA, I raise and got re-raised all in to what??? K 5 clubs... I don't even have to say what happended!!

      These guys are what I call "PROFESSIONAL DONKS". It's unbealiveable! They seem to have some freak psy power or something.... Why? Because they do act like that consistently since the begining.

      So, since then, to me, Freerolls are like that: it's a donk field.