Speed poker, 6-max / NEED HELP!

    • Erniastukas
      Erniastukas
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.03.2011 Posts: 125
      I've been doing quite well on NL25-NL50 full ring, made up to 1500 BRoll on PokerStars.

      Now I decided to take a shot at Titan speed tables promotion - and I'm kicked in the a**!!!

      I'm definatelly doing something essentially wrong, since I've lost more than 300usd already (though I'm down to NL10!), it can't be a simple downswing.

      I guess it has to do something with following spots in my game:
      • Since all 6-max articles stress that you should pay more attention to your opponents playing style, it can't be done due to the nature of speed tables (and no support for HUD)
      • I have played wider, also tried super-tight, though logic dictates that the first approach is right: to steal with wider range and compensate for more often blinds.
      • This one really pi**es me of: I often loose my whole stack with very strong hands! If I have a set - I crash into higher one, flush - into higher flush, not mention constantly loosing with AA, KK, AK, QQ and so on.


      My first observation is that you have to hold a super-stong hand to reach all-in in this type of game, there's no middle ground. After the flop opponents either give up quickly and easily (so I'm not able to extract value from my good hands) or if they start playing back stongly - it means they're holding something super-strong (so I'm loosing a lot in these spots also).

      So guys: you've already shared my lost 300usd - can I get some advice from you how to earn them back and adapt to this type of game :] ?
  • 10 replies
    • jules97
      jules97
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2012 Posts: 1,449
      I've been playing a little NL10 there. The tables are mostly fairly nitty but can get crazy around the blinds.

      This week PT4 have got a working HUD up if you are only playing 1 speed table per stake. It helps a lot.

      The following is only my experience and analysis so take it with a grain of salt.

      Stealling from teh SB with a minraise or small open i.e. 3BB is not worth it. Players will fight back.

      People fight back from BUT and CUT opens, opening up the 4betting is good. But this is player dependent, a HUD really helps or else you have to pay attention to your oppoenents.

      A lot of people open ridiculous ranges from CUT/BUT.

      Very player dependent, HUD really, really helps.

      Some people wil steal ridiculous from SB.


      So in summary it seems to be a lot looser opening ranges and more aggressive (3betting/4betting) around the blinds than normal 6 max.



      PS I'm not sure if speed tables are your first time playnig 6 max? If so I'd really recommend playing normal tables first. Going from FR to 6max took me a long time to adjust, it really is a different game and speed tables will make it harder to adjust.
    • Erniastukas
      Erniastukas
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.03.2011 Posts: 125
      I use HM2, so no HUD availability still... Though I may consider using PT4 trial for a period of promotion on Titan speed tables to see how it helps. It's also a reason why I play on speed tables: I need to clear my bonus + earn a new one. The bonus really started to help me to compensate some loses, since I've managed to stop the loosing line and make it much less, though still loosing.

      My insights about differences between FR and 6-max, i would be thankful on comments (true/false, why):
      a) You have to pay much more attention to your position than in FR. You vary your open/3-bet/4-bet ranges ALOT depending on position. Basically I play quite tight in UTG and UTG+1, then really loose in CU and BU, very tight again in SB and normal range in BB. The aim is to steal blinds as often as possible, though avoid staying OOP in raised pot after the flop, since I find it very hard to play in 6-max without possition.
      b) I agree about stealing from SB - it seems you need to be very tight in that position. The only move that would make sense - 3bet on open raises from CU and BU (since I presume those to be extra wide). The problem is that if they call a 3-bet (and they like calling in NL10) - you're again OOP after the flop.
      c) I think I may be loosing some oppurtunities to just call a previous raise preflop - when one should do that in every of the possitions?
      d) It seems you really have to hit a decent hand to continue after the flop in this speed 6-max scene. Looks like players continue investing into pot only with strong hands, but it makes really difficult to spot sets, 2pairs and overpairs, since they don't like to raise with them. Once I hit a top pair (let's say AK on KQ7 board) - I keep betting 1/2-3/4 pot, and the villain keeps calling. On the showdown I usually see either chased draw (which fills up on the river, but it's too late to get out of the pot, since it's already huge) or AA or a set. Does it mean that you have to play top pairs passively here???

      For the moment I guess I'm getting ok in preflop phase, though the only situation I'm comfortable in after the flop is this: if I raise (I have position and initiative), somebody calls (looks weak), checks after the flop (confirms weakness) - I make cBet almost 100% of the times. I works almost 100% of the times :] I need to work on other, more difficult play lines, though it seems that continuing with weak hits after flop is not possible profitably.
    • FinalTableTillus
      FinalTableTillus
      Gold
      Joined: 16.10.2006 Posts: 1,356
      why don't you just stick to what works for you, i.e. NL25 Fullring?!
    • Erniastukas
      Erniastukas
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.03.2011 Posts: 125
      In the long shot I want to play in MTT's every now and then. I see cash games as a "bread and butter" for source of MTT buyins and playing foundamentals in early phases - and I think you can learn a lot from 6-max.

      I want to become a versatile NL player. I'm sure it will add to my FR game too, when I'll get back to it - I would say I'm training my ability to adjust to changed rules, when it's needed.

      I had no really big trouble climbing up to FR NL25 - it was steady slow pace learning and grinding. But now I feel like I'm smashed in the wall - I'm ignited into finding a problem and adjusting to it.

      The fact is - I'm already deep into it. And there's no way I'm going to give up and walk away with those losses, I need to find what I'm doing bad and remove it bit by bit.
    • ipo44
      ipo44
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.04.2010 Posts: 26
      You may try this. Buy in with the minimum amount. When you reach 2x -3x your buy in then quit the game and start with the minimum again. I did this and it seems that it works. As you will be low stack they cant easily bluff you because you will go allin. On the other hand you dont risk too much if you go allin. I tried it at 0.2/0.4 limit but I dont have a big sample. 2800 hands BB/100 = 9.95
      VPIP = 29 PFR = 19.69 ATSteal blinds = 36.54

      If you will try it pls give me a feedback.
    • Erniastukas
      Erniastukas
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.03.2011 Posts: 125
      Ok, after some more very cautious playing and learning I guess I've found the answer. My losses are mainly on regular days. I win ONLY at weekends or some evenings, when player pools are larger...or consists more of a human type players, that DO make so mistakes in their game.

      I've spotted that whenever I login on regular day - I see the same players again and again at the tables. Strange? Not so much after some googling and reading:

      Huge Ipoker Bot Ring

      http://pokerbotnews.com/update-and-warning-on-ipoker-network-online-poker-bots/NewPost

      Make your own conclusions, but I'm getting really suspicious.
    • Erniastukas
      Erniastukas
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.03.2011 Posts: 125
      One more thread: 100% proof of robots on iPoker

      I guess it explains a lot. I was wondering sooooo much time - how it come, that there is so much really good players at NL10 in these speed 6-max, and they are there playing a lot of the time (if they that good - what are they doing at NL10)? They make virtually no mistakes - I almost never get paid by my good hands (they fold), and loose the showdown too often (by unsuspected monster hands).

      These are the steps I will do to confirm that all:
      a) I will play some more there, only on high-traffic hours and days.
      b) I will play some same format elsewhere (PartyPoker and PokerStars, NL10 6-max speed without using HUD).

      I will let you know the results.
    • Lefty85
      Lefty85
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2008 Posts: 159
      I know bots are not good for the poker economy but good regs are a far bigger problem than bots for a grinder. If you can't beat bots, you should really work on your game.
    • Erniastukas
      Erniastukas
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.03.2011 Posts: 125
      Ok, some more:
      a) I still can't beat even NL5 there. It's obvious they have LOTS of bots there, though the probem in playing against them without HUD is - you never know whom you're against. If it's bot - they're quite good nits. If it's real player - he's often loose passive. First ones go to showdown only with premium hands, second ones - with complete nonsences. And without knowing which one is which - I keep loosing to first ones on showdowns, and keep folding my top pairs to second ones.
      b) This story has a good side - I have red so much information about 6-max and theory in general (trying to find a cause for my losses) and tryied puting it to practice, that I'm doing really good at even NL25 on same format with no HUD on PokerStars (basically no winning session with less than 10bb/100)

      So I guess I'll just spit on Titan's till HM2 is available on speed tables, unless any of you guys have better advice.
    • jules97
      jules97
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2012 Posts: 1,449
      I think you are just experiencing variance. Ipoker usually has a bigger average pot than pokerstars and I am winning better there than pokerstars.

      I don;t think there are too many bots, it's pretty easy to see who the regulars are and there are always fish.