[NL2-NL10] NL10: QJ vs very loose guy

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Poker Stars $10.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1883464
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      UTG: $5.53 - VPIP: 51, PFR: 3, 3B: 0, AF: 0,6, Hands: 39
      MP: $5.09 - VPIP: 29, PFR: 5, 3B: 0, AF: 3,5, Hands: 38
      CO: $4.50 - VPIP: 11, PFR: 7, 3B: 0, AF: 0,0, Hands: 54
      BTN: $22.07 - VPIP: 11, PFR: 9, 3B: 0, AF: 1,0, Hands: 56
      Hero (SB): $10.00 - VPIP: 22, PFR: 19, 3B: 5, AF: 4,7, Hands: 64253
      BB: $5.57 - VPIP: 71, PFR: 53, 3B: 11, AF: 3,6, FoldTocBetFlop: 50(4), Hands: 34

      Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is SB with J :diamond: Q :heart:
      4 folds, Hero raises to $0.35, BB calls $0.25

      Flop: ($0.70) 5 :club: A :heart: 9 :club: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.40, BB calls $0.40

      Turn: ($1.50) K :heart: (2 players)
      Hero checks, BB checks

      River: ($1.50) Q :diamond: (2 players)
      Hero checks, BB bets $0.70, Hero folds

      There is something that I don't like about this hand. I mean, I have this weird feeling that a 2nd barrel wouldn't really be that bad in this spot given villain's very wide range + our GS (we can even be ahead of FDs). Villain should be able to fold all his PPs and maybe even 9x on this turn card.

      At least it does not seem to make that much sense to bet only the flop here as I feel I am getting floated way too often.
  • 7 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Avatars91,

      Preflop: Why this huge raise, rather just do it 3bb vs his stack.
      Postflop: Don't like the CB here cause you will have very little fold equity and the guy very often will have a lot of Ax hands which defends. Nor we don't have any equity if we get called so I'd just Check/Fold it.

      Best Regards.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Preflop: Why this huge raise, rather just do it 3bb vs his stack.


      Can we make it bigger with value hands? 0.35$ and if villain is super loose then even 0.40$?

      Postflop: Don't like the CB here cause you will have very little fold equity and the guy very often will have a lot of Ax hands which defends. Nor we don't have any equity if we get called so I'd just Check/Fold it.


      1) So generally on such A high boards (even non-FD ones?) we have little fold equity in SBvsBB situations? Is that the case vs regulars as well? I mean, of course unless our opponent's have a very high foldTocBet stat.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Can we make it bigger with value hands? 0.35$ and if villain is super loose then even 0.40$?

      Yes, we can do that, though I don't see QJo being a huge value-hand even vs such a guy. Will be still tough to play postflop being OOP.

      1) So generally on such A high boards (even non-FD ones?) we have little fold equity in SBvsBB situations? Is that the case vs regulars as well? I mean, of course unless our opponent's have a very high foldTocBet stat.

      Especially if he doesn't fold much then yes, what else do you think a fish likes to play? Of course Ax hands and which means practically every single Ax hands, starting from A2o.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      What about unknown fullstacked guys on average (I know it depends, but it is just simply so often the case that because of the Stars large player pool I am very often up against unknown fullstacked TAG guys)? Are we better off just taking the safe path and check/fold on unconnected rainbow/FD A high boards? We are basically relying on fold equity anyway so not a great spot being OOP even vs such guys.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      What about unknown fullstacked guys on average (I know it depends, but it is just simply so often the case that because of the Stars large player pool I am very often up against unknown fullstacked TAG guys)? Are we better off just taking the safe path and check/fold on unconnected rainbow/FD A high boards? We are basically relying on fold equity anyway so not a great spot being OOP even vs such guys.


      As always. :) Never can say that it's ALWAYS a CB or always not a CB. You can't always be vs unknown, I just can't understand how people can say so? Even if you have 10 hands on the guy you should already have an image from him, which of course ain't 100% correct but still tells how he is playing. Cause during those 10 hands you should still have seen something from him. Either doesn't go to showdown at all, plays fit/Fold, plays loose and floats.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Well, OK, say I have 10 hands on a guy– I can get a very tiny and slight impression of some aspects of villain's game, maybe can make some assumptions about his tendencies (they may be pretty much off, given that we are talking about a 10 hand sample, so at one point I do have to worry about whether or not it even makes sense to make such assumptions this early on) and depending how well and accurately I can draw conclusions from such a small sample I may or may not be able to find good reasons for either making a specific play (for example, cBetting on this board) or not making it.

      That sounds reasonable and logical, however, I pretty much doubt that I am good enough to draw reasonable conclusions from a ten hand sample size about villain's postflop play. I guess that I would be able to identify villain as either a very loose fish or a somewhat not as loose a player preflop, and that's somewhat easy, since those loose guys would pretty much limp very often even during those 10 hands, however when it comes to postflop, I still am pretty much against an unknown, and since my decisions may very well change vs different kind of opponents, against an unknown I don't know which line to choose, as he can be playing in all kinds of different ways, depending on his style he can have all sorts of ranges, and in such a spot where I don't know what to expect from the guy there just has to be some sort of a guideline or standard play that is the safest or, at least on average, the most + EV. Is that not what ABC poker is called?

      I don't quite understand why it is not OK to classify an opponent as an unknown when it comes to certain aspects of his game. E.g. he can be an unknown when it comes to facing 3Bets (i.e., we don't know how he reacts because in a hypothetical small sample of 10, 50, or even 100 hands we have not seen him facing a 3Bet yet) or he can be an unknown in the sense that we don't know how light he is capable of calling us down once we raise him on the flop aso.

      Sure, sometimes it is possible to make assumptions about some aspects of his play by noticing similarities in other areas of his game, i.e., we have not seen him react to cBets in 3Bet pots, but we know that he sort of does not fold often in regular pots, thus we conclude that it is likely going to be the same case in 3Bet pots as well, or another even clearer example – we maybe have not seen villain 3Betting vs our check/raise on a dry paired board before, however, we do know that he is very very aggressive and thus we don't even have to see him 3Bet us in such a spot before to assume that he might be making a move. And this is where I indeed agree with you – we can notice some trends and similarities even when the evidence for such reads is not as apparent.

      But theoretically speaking, how can I ever not say that villain is an unknown in a situation (not this one though) where it is the first hand that I am playing versus him,and how can I ever know what to do in a spot (since it depends, as you so often say, which, of course, is correct), for example, on the flop, where it pretty much depends heavily on the opponent type, whether I can cBet or not? Surely, there must be some ABC poker type of standard lines/guidelines.

      Sorry for the long text. I felt that it just had to be discussed.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Seems like you are hardly leveling yourself. :P Nobody really talked that we can't tag unknown opponents as unknown and use specific line vs them. There are just different unknown player, for example just according the stack you can already say that the guy is loose unknown opponent. From there you can build new reads on him and doesn't matter how many hands you have on him. You may see just one showdown and already have somewhat image on the guy by simply just seeing what he holds or calls you down. What else should you do on the table then if not concentrating on the opponents, especially if you playing SH? Wait until you hit? :D

      Also it's quite obvious that vs unknown opponents also the default and simple line is not to overplay our hand and rather play it passively.