7.8k hand evaluation

    • lloydy84
      Joined: 16.02.2007 Posts: 15
      Hello guys, I have played 7.8k hands and I am losing very slightly on .02/.04. My all in EV is exact.

      Is there anything I can post here so you guys can help me spot any leaks? I have evaluated my hands and have noticed a few things.

      - I am + with all pairs (taking into account $ lost to suck outs & oversets)
      - I am losing $7+ with suited aces from A,2 - A,J so I know I'm overplaying this hand hoping to hit a flush and when I hit I am not paid. It's a leak I will plug

      According to Pokertracker my VPIP from 2nd position (one before the cut off) is 13.47 compared to 13.2 from the button. Now I'm thinking this is generally because there is a raise by the cut off so I fold, but surely this is incorrect play? I'm actually +$0.1/hand from the button, 2nd position and 3rd position.

      I'm -$0.1 from the cut off, but only because I lost buy-ins when I flopped a set with Queens & villan flopped a flush. l also ran into an overset with 8's.

      I'm -$0.25/hand from the BB & -$0.02/hand from the SB.

      My general feeling is that I am not gaining enough $ from the button and I'm losing too much from the BB. VPIP from the BB is 8.25% raising 4%.

      Id there anything I could post from Pokertracker that will help evaluate? I'm really wanting to do this properly and would appreciate advice.

      Overall VPIP : 11.84
      PFR : 7.29
  • 13 replies
    • lloydy84
      Joined: 16.02.2007 Posts: 15
      Don't waste your time, DT. Can't be arsed with this anymore.
    • Maloco87
      Joined: 30.01.2011 Posts: 514
      I don't think anyone will really help you until you have played 30k hands

      your overall vpip and pfr is very very tight imo maybe I should start playing like this and i would n't lose so much
    • Returners777
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 8
      Yep, dont waste you time. Start play, but begin with small money.
    • ExternalUseOnly
      Joined: 30.01.2010 Posts: 3,373
      Originally posted by lloydy84
      Don't waste your time, DT. Can't be arsed with this anymore.
      Hey lloydy whats up mate why can't you be arsed?

      First of all like it's already been said in here don't worry about your results after 8k hands its absolutely nothing just keep playing your game and worry about results at 20k or 30k even then you won't really have a decent sample you need to be closer to 100k to draw some solid conclusions.

      You should open more from the button, if the blinds are gonna fold a lot then steal a lot :) Also take a look at the cut off is he stealing a lot knowing you keep folding?? if so 3bet him, make him fold until he stops or starts 4betting you.

      Start defending your blinds, Now don't start 3 betting any 2 against any player because you will find yourself in some tough postflop spots out of position and until we improve our post flop game we want to avoid these but pick your spots if Button keeps stealing adjust and fire back at him.

      By the way are you playing Full ring or short handed games? Looks like you are maybe playing a bit tight, i think i used to play like 15/12 for full ring and if you are playing short hand you need to play a lot more hands.

      But honestly there isn't much more advice i can give you at this stage except keep playing and gaining experience the more you play the more you learn and you need to play soooo many mroe hands to get a sample.

      There is one more thing you can post from your tracking software. Hands. Get over to the hand evaluation section and post some hands for review this is sure to get you thinking the correct way :)

      All the best
    • ProfitsofDoom
      Joined: 29.08.2012 Posts: 177
      If you are interested in plugging Leaks, maybe check out Leakbuster. I have gotten alot out of the program. The trial isn't the full version, but will give you some info, and an idea what it does. The training content is really good both written and full length video, that will correspond with the Leaks you are showing.

      I guess everyone absorbs info differently, but i think some of the info has sunk in because it is analyzing my database and my play, and is giving me info about the things i am doing wrong, and gives you an idea how much bb/100 each leak is potentially costing you at the table.

      It has been one of the biggest things that has helped me, would recommend to anyone trying to play cash games.
    • lloydy84
      Joined: 16.02.2007 Posts: 15
      Sorry, I just had to stop playing.

      The mindset I left with the other day, and the mindset I have right now, is that the software is deliberately dropping cards to make both mine and my opponents hand.

      I know it's wrong, once this happens over and over again I quit playing, pursuade itself it's paranoia, but then a few hands into a new session it stats all over again.

      Really to the point I can't play Poker properly, and to the point I want to quit.

      Hands like these.. I really want to get away from them, but then I consider my opponents range and call.. Like my heart tells me I'm beat but my mind, through reading etc, tells me I'm ahead of his range.

      Maybe I'm constantly running into the top end of Villans range, or maybe just playing badly. I'll try give some examples:

      Cake - $0.04 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 9 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      SB: $2.02
      BB: $4.14
      UTG: $3.82
      UTG+1: $4.25
      Hero (MP): $4.51
      MP+1: $7.26
      LP: $4.00
      CO: $9.53
      BTN: $8.37

      SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.04

      Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero has K:spade: Q:spade:

      fold, fold, Hero calls $0.04, fold, fold, CO calls $0.04, fold, SB calls $0.02, BB checks

      Flop: ($0.16, 4 players) 7:diamond: 2:spade: J:spade:
      SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets $0.16, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.16

      Turn: ($0.48, 2 players) K:diamond:
      Hero checks, CO bets $0.48, Hero calls $0.48

      River: ($1.44, 2 players) 4:spade:
      Hero bets $0.72, CO raises to $2.64, Hero calls $1.92

      CO shows 9:spade: A:spade: (Flush, Ace High) (Pre 59%, Flop 79%, Turn 23%)
      Hero mucks K:spade: Q:spade: (Flush, King High) (Pre 41%, Flop 21%, Turn 77%)
      CO wins $6.28

      First of all, I should have raised, I didn't at the time because every raise I'd put in against the blinds here had been called/re-raised & I'd given up raising with anything but premiums at this point.

      I think I play fine on the flop & turn. Although I have the flush draw, I do have TP but not TK.. I'm happy to call.

      The river drops a spade, and of course out of the three other players, one has the nut flush and beats my second nut flush..

      Now this is where my mind tries to reason.. Of all the cards these guys could possibly be holding, one had to be holding the only spade that beats my king, also holding another spade, also making his flush. Not only that, but what where the odds that a spade dropped on the river making both our hands? It just seems like such a improbability, but seems to happen very regularly..

      I then begin to consider ranges. 1) Has he hit a set and thinks I'm just representing the flush. 2) Is he holding a lower flush?

      - And then, how many times have I chased down a flush draw thinking of the implied odds & just wasted $? I swear if he didn't have me beat no way would that last spade have dropped.

      Cake - $0.04 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 7 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      SB: $1.63
      BB: $4.58
      UTG: $1.42
      UTG+1: $4.74
      MP: $1.85
      Hero (CO): $3.88
      BTN: $4.09

      SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.04

      Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero has Q:spade: Q:diamond:

      fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.16, fold, Hero calls $0.16, fold, fold, fold

      Flop: ($0.38, 2 players) Q:club: 6:club: 5:club:
      UTG+1 bets $0.28, Hero raises to $0.75, UTG+1 raises to $1.86, Hero raises to $3.72 and is all-in, UTG+1 calls $1.86

      Turn: ($7.82, 2 players) T:heart:

      River: ($7.82, 2 players) 2:spade:

      UTG+1 shows J:club: T:club: (Flush, Queen High) (Pre 19%, Flop 66%, Turn 80%)
      Hero shows Q:spade: Q:diamond: (Three of a Kind, Queens) (Pre 81%, Flop 34%, Turn 20%)
      UTG+1 wins $7.30

      This one also. I mean this happens often, so often it brings tears to my eyes! We flop a set 1/8.5 times, and when I do.. Jesus, never ever simple. Can't they just be holding overcards or something? No.. The only opponent I have just happens to have flopped a flush, which I COULD have gotten away from if only I didn't hit my 1/8.5 set!

      It's like, the software is considering the best way for us to both get the money in, sticking the cards down and going 'There I go, nice bit of rake'. Honestly thats the way I start thinking.

      BTW, I'm not just arguing the software is playing against me.. I mean I'm sure it doesn't have a vendetta or anything, I have been on the winning side of this too.

      Cake - $0.04 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 9 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      UTG+1: $3.99
      Hero (MP): $3.47
      MP+1: $3.11
      LP: $4.03
      CO: $9.42
      BTN: $3.62
      SB: $3.28
      BB: $2.41
      UTG: $2.48

      SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.04

      Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero has 5:diamond: 5:spade:

      fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.12, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BB calls $0.08

      Flop: ($0.26, 2 players) 5:heart: 7:diamond: 6:spade:
      BB bets $0.26, Hero raises to $0.65, BB calls $0.39

      Turn: ($1.56, 2 players) 5:club:
      BB checks, Hero checks

      River: ($1.56, 2 players) 8:spade:
      BB raises to $1.64 and is all-in, Hero calls $1.64

      Hero shows 5:diamond: 5:spade: (Four of a Kind, Fives) (Pre 19%, Flop 77%, Turn 100%)
      BB shows 9:heart: 9:diamond: (Straight, Nine High) (Pre 81%, Flop 23%, Turn 0%)
      Hero wins $4.52

      I mean, come on!! The guy didn't stand a chance of getting away from this one did he? If there's one card he really doesn't want to see it's the 8. Maybe a 9 would have killed him too but Jesus, it dropped the exact card he DIDN'T want to see. Like.. Say if I was the dealer. Only I could drop any card I felt. And I was taking a rake from this game. You know what card I'd drop? An eight. And what came? An eight!

      Yeah I know my mind is all wrong, and I need to sort it out, but Jesus it happens every session without fail, and sometimes every few hands.

      I'll stop playing for a while, re-read some books, a few more articles and come back with the right frame of mind I hope.
    • lloydy84
      Joined: 16.02.2007 Posts: 15
      I should add that I suffer my fair of bad beats, Kings running into Aces, all that. I don't flinch.. Really it doesn't bother me at all. I don't kick the cat, throw my laptop against the wall.. I was 7 buy ins down on my EV graph and my mentality is 'Just crack on with it'

      This though really gets to me.
    • lloydy84
      Joined: 16.02.2007 Posts: 15
      Yeah at this point I am passed caring so am calling it down anyway. Down to my last buy in anyway, but here, I'm playing one table and this happens.. Same old.

      Cake - $0.04 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 8 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      MP+1: $1.71
      CO: $5.48
      BTN: $4.19
      SB: $1.84
      Hero (BB): $4.00
      UTG: $4.02
      UTG+1: $14.41
      MP: $7.21

      SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.04

      Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero has 8:heart: 9:spade:

      UTG calls $0.04, UTG+1 calls $0.04, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero checks

      Flop: ($0.14, 3 players) 6:spade: 9:heart: 4:club:
      Hero checks, UTG bets $0.08, UTG+1 calls $0.08, Hero calls $0.08

      Turn: ($0.38, 3 players) 3:club:
      Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets $0.19, Hero calls $0.19, UTG calls $0.19

      River: ($0.95, 3 players) 8:club:
      Hero checks, UTG bets $0.60, fold, Hero calls $0.60

      UTG shows J:club: T:club: (Flush, Jack High) (Pre 68%, Flop 29%, Turn 34%)
      Hero mucks 8:heart: 9:spade: (Two Pair, Nines and Eights) (Pre 32%, Flop 71%, Turn 66%)
      UTG wins $2.01

      Thanks for the two pair.
    • Grokken
      Joined: 26.03.2011 Posts: 32
      Originally posted by lloydy84
      I should add that I suffer my fair of bad beats, Kings running into Aces, all that. I don't flinch.. Really it doesn't bother me at all. I don't kick the cat, throw my laptop against the wall.. I was 7 buy ins down on my EV graph and my mentality is 'Just crack on with it'

      This though really gets to me.
      I'm confused, you say you don't get bothered by all when you run kings into aces, but you get very upset when you flop sets against flushes. I think you need to realize that there really isn't much difference between the two. You are ahead of villains range and can comfortably get the money in knowing you are ahead. Most of the time you will win, but you also have to remember that you will lose some of the time as well, even though you made the right play.
    • faronel
      Joined: 13.07.2011 Posts: 1,186
      Hey, man! I'd recommend reading the following article: http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/psychology/135/1/

      There is some tilt talk present in your hand analysis and you use it as an excuse for your own unfortune.
      1) The quads hand. Ask yourself: would you rather prefer the 99 check/fold on river or shove like the villain did? Of course, you are more happy with the addon to your bankroll.
      2) Freeplay pot hand. Don't limp with KQs in first, raise or fold it. This is where the whole trouble started to pile up. I remember one episode from a pokerstrategy video where a coach said "if you make a mistake on an earlier street, you pay more for the mistake on the later street". This is the exact scenario. It wasn't that much about you got overflushed, it was about how you got to that point. If you were the aggressor the whole way, CO might have lost interest before the river or even before the flop.
      3) The QQ-set hand. Seriously, I would be VERY happy happy to get my stack in a scenario like that. Versus villain's range we may have all sort of hands that could go broke here (AcKx, AcQx, AA, KK, 66, 55, flush). And notice, many of those you beat! Your move was +EV anyway, so this is what should matter, not the outcome, because outcome will matter with +EV after 100k+ hands. :)

      4) The last hand. Well, you just said yourself. You let the tilt suck you in. If you have some bankroll left. Take some break. Consult with Jared in our forum, maybe he can help with how to channel some of your tilt energy into more productive form of energy.
    • lloydy84
      Joined: 16.02.2007 Posts: 15
      Thanks for the replies, I know in theory, in situations like this I am ahead of the Villans range, in practise I'm losing alot of buy ins. I expected them to be on a flush draw rather than have flopped their flush.

      I don't think this situation is similar to Kings v Aces at all. I know with Kings I'm going to run into Aces 1 in 25 times and go bust pre-flop depending on my opponent.

      Now I'm not sure of the odds here, but chances of 1) A person having two suited cards vs my pair 2) Flopping a flush 118-1 3) AND then me hitting my 8.5-1 set seems massive. But it does happen alot..

      I am going to read the article posted, thanks. Also watch some videos this week before depositing again next week.

      I bought Crushing the Micros, the book, and the author suggests 3-betting with speculative hands in late position against a mid-late raiser with high 'Fold to 3bet %' & loose raising range. I tried this 4 times, each opponent I had 1k+ hands on, each had 89%+ 'Fold to 3bet %'.. I had 4% 3bet pre-flop, which I think is quite tight & only one folded :/

      The others I missed and these guys were holding good hands, J,J+. Made me want to stop even though I know this is wrong. So. I'll do more reading.

      BTW I don't think the players on these levels are anything like described in this book, not on CAKE. I've never had a player call me down with TP TK, not that comes to mind anyway.
    • yankomania
      Joined: 07.10.2010 Posts: 123
      KQ - raise preflop and play as pfa, bet flop, turn, but against a donk like him, he may raise or push on flop, then just fold .
      QQ - I would 3bet preflop, on the flop ok, just make pot size raise not x3.
      55 - OK, just pot size raise on draw heavy board, don't be afaid that they will fold, because at NL2, NL4 THEY WON'T !
      89o - call flop, fold turn. What do you imagine he could have as UTG limper against your middle top pair without kicker?

      But everything OK, just keep playing, learning and results will come. Shit happens, you can't win every hand.

      Best of luck at the tables,

      yankomania :f_biggrin:
    • ExternalUseOnly
      Joined: 30.01.2010 Posts: 3,373
      Thanks to everyone for the great help and advice given so far in this thread good to see you all helping out the community :)

      Hey again lloydy, In my opinion i think you should read as much info as you can find about variance and begin to really understand what it is and how it works. A lot can happen in the short term and believe me 8k isnt even enough hands to call the short term :D but you keep making correct decisions then in the long run (100k hands minimum) you should start to see some good results.

      Do you attend the live coachings here on PokerStrategy.com?

      Have you thought about joining the NL beginners course? You should take a look at that follow the link in my sig :)

      Keep playing don't get too disheartened by bad beats and hopefully we will see you posting some positive results soon enough

      Let me know if i can help you with anything