600nl cold 5bet post flop spot

    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
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      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Ok so table mark opens to 12 good reg 3bets to 35 from btn. Good reg makes it 88 from sb and we cold 5 to 156 from the big.

      All fold and sb tank calls.

      Flop j97r villain checks we check

      Turn is 2 villain checks we check

      River is a 4 villain bets 174 which works out to be half lot after 4 seconds hero calls with aj.

      How do we view his range? If we jM river what's his calling range? Does he fold his Entire rangrassuming he bets kk+ ott?

      Thought on heros post flop play?
  • 16 replies
    • pleno1
      pleno1
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      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      We both start hand with around 700
    • CallumN
      CallumN
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2012 Posts: 1,141
      Im really lost to be honest. Spot that could require more in depth reads besides 'good reg'

      I also think if we want to 5b we can just cib? accomplishes the same thing I think given we are IP

      In regards to us jamming and him folding his entire range. It doesnt make sense to me. It makes it sound like we are bluffing with tptk? In a spot where he will never fold better.

      I would have thought if we are jamming its for thin value
    • pleno1
      pleno1
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      Also flop and turn thoughts.

      Flop I figured he has a bunch of value hands and can definitely flat pre although potentially kq bdfd that would c/jan

      Turn I figured he's c/f almost always, how much do we value protecting vs repping ak vs any air hand.
    • 1mpr0x
      1mpr0x
      Platinum
      Joined: 27.11.2009 Posts: 3,404
      Going by the fact you posted this hand he probably showed AK and going by that his b/c range can be thin enough to make jamming > calling ;)

      Can`t really write more. So image/leveldependent - Ranges can be pretty random. Considering jamming is definitely a solid thoughtprocess and can be a great exploit/trap vs the right opponents
    • TwoSHAE
      TwoSHAE
      Basic
      Joined: 06.09.2012 Posts: 5
      Jamming would be terrible... when you cold 5b pre you don't have nuts in your range. If he is perceptive at all, he will snap KK+ OTR (and he should have that stuff a lot given pre)
    • Castle93
      Castle93
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      Joined: 06.06.2011 Posts: 1,452
      Originally posted by 1mpr0x
      jamming > calling ;)

      jamming is definitely a solid thoughtprocess and can be a great exploit/trap vs the right opponents
      Originally posted by TwoSHAE
      Jamming would be terrible...

      I love poker sometimes :f_biggrin:
    • 1mpr0x
      1mpr0x
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      Joined: 27.11.2009 Posts: 3,404
      I thought we are jamming for value but more important twoshae why did you slowroll me on ftp?
    • getdotacom
      getdotacom
      Black
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 607
      I think we basically have nothing postflop. His range is KK+ for the most part, can't see any reason to call with AK or some other hand unless u have some sick history, he'd have shoved with QQ,AK IMO. If u assume he bets KK+ ott, then what are u trying to accomplish ? Fold out QQ or get called by what ? KJs ?:D If u assume he has some random suited broadways, u probably can shove. And I'm not so sure he bets KK+ ott because it's very unlikely he can get 2 streets here when u check back the flop. Ur range from his point of view should be something like AK, random bluffs with some sd value and slowplayed AA,KK, so he might check twice to pick up bluffs and maybe even turn KK into a bluffcatcher on the turn.
    • FeelMeFlow
      FeelMeFlow
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      Joined: 03.08.2012 Posts: 7
      Originally posted by TwoSHAE
      Jamming would be terrible... when you cold 5b pre you don't have nuts in your range. If he is perceptive at all, he will snap KK+ OTR (and he should have that stuff a lot given pre)
      I agree with this. Jamming seems silly against a good player.

      I think you played it well if you called river. You're not going to get it in good much if you b/c the flop in a 5b pot here and you can control things well by checking the flop. You could bet turn but as you said he'll c/f turn tons so better to let him try and get thin value from worse on the end with hands he would fold on the flop and turn if you bet those streets.
    • CallumN
      CallumN
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      Joined: 04.01.2012 Posts: 1,141
      Originally posted by FeelMeFlow

      I agree with this. Jamming seems silly against a good player.

      so better to let him try and get thin value from worse on the end with hands he would fold on the flop and turn if you bet those streets.
      These two points basically contradict eachother.

      The way I explained it to Pleno was if we jam river here he is going to shout WTF for sure. It really depends what mood he is in and if we perceive him to always bet QQ+ on the turn we basically free roll the guy by shoving river.

      I think I just misread your post actually, did you mean Pleno can go for thin value, not villian going for thin value?
    • Leatherass9
      Leatherass9
      Basic
      Joined: 17.05.2011 Posts: 55
      I think we have to give the SB credit here for kk and AA the vast majority of the time. I think c betting like 1/5 pot on the flop is an option, but I would skew towards just praying I can get it to showdown free of charge. I think calling the river is definitely a losing decision (although I am NOT saying you are never good) and shoving is even worse. Using your chips to make a river call here rather than a c bet doesn't make any sense to me. I think those chips are far better invested c betting the flop if you really feel like you need to at least make him make some kind of a decision. Additionally, you can set the price a bit cheaper than what he made it. 1/5 pot really is all you need to bet if you are going to bet.

      I would look hard at your opponent's ranges here for cold 4 betting. That is really the key part in this whole hand. If he has a big propensity to cold 4 bet, then making a play like this from time to time is OK. But blocker or no blocker, I would bet against the vast majority of players, this is going to be a -EV cold 5 bet, especially if you end up losing chips in spots like these from time to time.

      Personally, I think people vastly over rate the importance of these types of spots. They are essentially meaningless to your overall win rate. I think people try to do too much at times, especially preflop in 100BB games. I would save this kind of thought process for 500bb + cash games when this type of stuff can really be effective. Unfortunately when playing online, I think you are wasting your time, and ultimately your money engaging in these types of spots. Just my 2 cents.

      P.S. I would recommend next time letting us all know from what position the mark opened from. If you look in HEM for people's opening numbers by position, even fish open different ranges from different positions, so this has a lot to do with it the analysis of this hand. If he opened from CO your play gets slightly better and if he opened first to act, a lot worse IMO.
    • 1mpr0x
      1mpr0x
      Platinum
      Joined: 27.11.2009 Posts: 3,404
      Forget whatever I wrote misread title and hand somehow thought it`s bvb cold4bet pot. Was mad tired when I read it.

      Actually I think it still makes a little sense in a 5bet pot in terms of jamming river but w.e
    • TheLastNail
      TheLastNail
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      Joined: 30.05.2008 Posts: 6,024
      OB shove on F for triplemerge? must be the board where ppl snapfold their QQ and cant resist it w 9Ts, right? :D
    • Castle93
      Castle93
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      Joined: 06.06.2011 Posts: 1,452
      Originally posted by TheLastNail
      OB shove on F for triplemerge? must be the board where ppl snapfold their QQ and cant resist it w 9Ts, right? :D
      Triple range merge ftw! :f_biggrin:
    • dirtyibis
      dirtyibis
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      Joined: 20.01.2008 Posts: 51
      Gonna have to say yeah I can't see how you end up 5b a cold 4b without insane history or A LOT of hands to show a trend for cold 4 betting, with a few stacks behind you, rather than just 1 stack... If you must play it that way a river shove over surely has - EV there. Better line is to overbet shove turn after checking behind flop, after all, if you have no idea what's going on, he can't either, right? lol
    • pleno1
      pleno1
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      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Originally posted by TheLastNail
      OB shove on F for triplemerge? must be the board where ppl snapfold their QQ and cant resist it w 9Ts, right? :D
      I like a lot! :D