[NL2-NL10] NL10: KJo playable in this spot?

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Poker Stars $10.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 1889848
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      BTN: $8.55 - VPIP: 22, PFR: 16, 3B: 9, AF: 1,8, AFq: 36, BU_Steal: 45, cBetFlop: 64(25), cBetTurn: 20(5), FoldTo3Bet: 14(7), Call3BetIPfromBU:100(3), FoldTocBetFlop: 60(20), FoldToCbetTurn: 0(3), FoldTocBet3BetFlop: 60(5), WTS: 33, W$SD: 65, Hands: 489
      Hero (SB): $10.00 - VPIP: 22, PFR: 19, 3B: 5, AF: 4,7, Hands: 68372
      BB: $7.94 - VPIP: 33, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 4,0, Hands: 6
      UTG: $10.01 - VPIP: 36, PFR: 36, 3B: 0, AF: 0,5, Hands: 11
      CO: $12.21 - VPIP: 12, PFR: 9, 3B: 0, AF: 0,0, Hands: 33

      Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is SB with J :spade: K :heart:
      2 folds, BTN raises to $0.30, 2 folds

      Can we cold call? We are ahead of villain's preflop raising range:


             Equity     Win     Tie
      MP2    53.92%  52.25%   1.67% { KJo }
      MP3    46.08%  44.41%   1.67% { 22+, A2s+, K7s+, Q7s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A8o+, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 97o+, 86o+, 76o }


      Although we are OOP, which sort of decreases our equity, we can still play back vs our opponent because he seems to be taking only a stronger range to the showdown (could be variance given his somewhat bigger WTS % + small sample size?) – we can either checkraise some boards, or maybe even try an OOP float and take the pot down on the river? Since villain seems to 2nd barrel rarely.

      We can also get overcalled by the BB, who might be loose since he is not fullstacked. Then our plan changes and we pretty much want to be leading flops once we hit a pair vs the possibly loose opponent for value. We also sort of ignore the openraiser then and hope he folds.

      Don't like 3Betting since he calls so often. We are not really doing all that well vs his calling range there. Although an advantage may be that he seems to fold to cBets often. Still probably not enough to make the 3Bet.
  • 11 replies
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Hi,

      If I were at BB spot I don´t mind calling with KJ, but being oop I doubt you can show profit postflop unless you´re going to c/r bluff or donk leading a lot of boards. Personally I would 3-bet KJ that spot for value. If you feel you can´t 3-bet for value then fold would be better option

      best regards,
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      I would like to hear veriz's opinion on this one.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Avatars91,

      Doesn't make sense to 3bet vs such a guy, he just wont fold it and we can't do it for value. Therefore only option is either a) Call or b) Fold. Though whilst the guy has leaks in his CB frequency we might still overplay him and especially with his W$SD, so calling could be possible.

      Best Regards.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Though whilst the guy has leaks in his CB frequency we might still overplay him and especially with his W$SD, so calling could be possible.


      What are our options of exploiting his CB frequency depending on the board structure?

      I could imagine that he maybe even often just checks behind on the flop without a hit (since his CB is relatively on the more lower side) thus we can just check flop and stab a lot of turns when he doesn't cBet.

      Can we even check/call dry flops if we have 2 overcards in order to bet the river once he checks back the turn?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      What are our options of exploiting his CB frequency depending on the board structure?



      Do you really think it's possible to answer this question? Depends a lot on opponents CB, opponents stack, our image etc. You can't answer that part, can be exploited many ways, practically anything you could figure out.

      Can we even check/call dry flops if we have 2 overcards in order to bet the river once he checks back the turn?

      With K high? :P Why would you do that. :) Not really unless you have a specific plan for the turn. :) For example donking or doing something specific. Without plan to go for a Calling mode is just turning yourself into a fish.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      With K high? Why would you do that. Not really unless you have a specific plan for the turn. For example donking or doing something specific. Without plan to go for a Calling mode is just turning yourself into a fish.


      So, say we know that villain likes to cBet the flop A LOT + he has a very wide preflop range. We also know that he likes to multibarrel a lot. Can we check/call low card flops vs him, expecting to get paid if we hit TP on the turn (as villain is likely going to bet again, thinking that because of our check/calling on the flop we likely now have a 2nd pair at best most of the time, which is weak and may be forced out by the showdown) + can we donk on blank turns since villain's range will be weak, provided that we don't have to be worried about him being skeptical about our line/its strength (how can we possibly tell that though?)? Or are there far too many other factors involved to simply say: "yes, if these criteria are met, it is a +EV plan"?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      With K high? Why would you do that. Not really unless you have a specific plan for the turn. For example donking or doing something specific. Without plan to go for a Calling mode is just turning yourself into a fish.


      So, say we know that villain likes to cBet the flop A LOT + he has a very wide preflop range. We also know that he likes to multibarrel a lot. Can we check/call low card flops vs him, expecting to get paid if we hit TP on the turn (as villain is likely going to bet again, thinking that because of our check/calling on the flop we likely now have a 2nd pair at best most of the time, which is weak and may be forced out by the showdown) + can we donk on blank turns since villain's range will be weak, provided that we don't have to be worried about him being skeptical about our line/its strength (how can we possibly tell that though?)? Or are there far too many other factors involved to simply say: "yes, if these criteria are met, it is a +EV plan"?
      Again you are doing the same thing, why would we talk about just flop play? You can't talk in poker just about flop play...


      and will always depend. Vs some we may do that, vs some we may not, vs some we may raise, vs some we may fold, everything is possible. You look over and over again into something what can not be explained by default move.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Here are the criteria that I provided you with in my previous post:

      *) villain likes to cBet the flop A LOT
      *) he has a very wide preflop range
      *) he likes to multibarrel a lot

      What am I missing that prevents you from evaluating the plan that I described, as general as it is? I am neither asking for a default play nor having a robotic approach to poker at the moment, I believe.

      Or at least guide me somehow away from oversimplifying these spots, if my approach is indeed so catastrophically simple (which may have been true in the past but is, in my opinion, hardly the case in this example), because by simply posting a big red stamp that makes its recipient feel intimidated (a somewhat strange tactic that many coaches seem to have grown fond of for reasons I don't quite fully understand) you are not exactly ever helping anyone make the right change in attitude. At least not if saying "it depends" without giving a single guideline towards the right direction in thinking is all you do.
      I mean, it is a somewhat logical consequence that people are getting told this very same thing over and over again. I fail to see why it would be surprising.

      Now, I don't want to sound aggressive (I'm not and I hope it does not sound like as if I am), however, this sort of attitude towards me is confusing and influences my development process in a pretty bad way. If it is a matter of money (e.g. you don't offer much deeper analysis @ the <NL10 section or deeper analysis = in private coachings only), please tell me in skype and we'll make some arrangements. It is perfectly understandable because you are already doing way too much for a single human being here on the forums + the amount of hands you have to evaluate is insane, but please do tell me if that is the case, because otherwise I just feel bad without a reason + don't even improve (thus facing similar situations here on the forums in future and in turn – feeling even worse. It's like a never-ending cycle).
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Here are the criteria that I provided you with in my previous post:

      Well, then you answered your question already yourself, didn't you? Why would you float with K high on a dry flop vs a guy who likes to barrel?

      What am I missing that prevents you from evaluating the plan that I described, as general as it is? I am neither asking for a default play nor having a robotic approach to poker at the moment, I believe.

      It's not really about me preventing to evaluate the hand but what you are asking is rather HIGHLY DEPENDENT on different aspects. Those situations can be played any way you can imagine playing poker, for example on the flop Check/Call, Check/Fold, Check/Raise, anything is possible as long we have information. What to do vs such a specific opponent go above and you will get your answer just from your own post.

      Though what you don't really pay attention yourself is that you actually talk about one hand in the beginning and then start to ask about a lot different topics and maybe even different hands, which brings up a big mess in my head and very difficult to follow (aka I would need to read all the thread through again). You may have there 10-20 threads whilst I have 100-200 threads, so it's not that easy. That's also why there is a separate section for Theory Discussion & Hand Evaluation/Discussion. Or in other words great spot to discuss such theory stuff in Beginner's Locker room once you want my response (there we can concentrate on a specific topic). That's also why there is a rule not more than 1 hand per thread.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Well, then you answered your question already yourself, didn't you? Why would you float with K high on a dry flop vs a guy who likes to barrel?


      Why not check call flop and donk on missed turns, provided we have 2 overcards on the flop? His flop cBetting range is very wide and if we hit our TP on the turn, he's just going to barrel loose and we get value + since his range is weak on the flop, it is very often going to be weak on the turn as well, hence why we can donk and try to take it down. Balancing would be pretty problematic though, since I would never play a strong hand vs him that way (especially since he is fond of multibarreling). But will he really notice/adapt that quickly?

      About that previous post: I must apologize - it was a very bad day for me and I was unable to control my emotions, hence the overreaction. Ironically, during my session that evening I think I finally got what you've been trying to tell me all this time – every single opponent is indeed different, even the fish. I guess I just classified everyone using very general criteria as guidelines, i.e., – "oh, he's a passive reg", or "he's a fish that calls a lot postflop", whereas in reality there are sooo many other nuances/factors that have to be taken into account. I am a bit surprised I understood it so late, and at the same time I guess it means that I have to change the way I approach hand evaluations (and of course seperate that from theory discussion, which I promise I'll do starting from now on) as well, since thus far in my hand evaluation process I have not really spent enough time into reproducing the information about all these spots in as much detail as it would be necessary for me to finally avoid these red "it depends" stamps.

      That said, you are doing a pretty awesome job and I will try to change my attitude as best as I can.

      One quick question though: would you then recommend me to open my own thread in the Beginner's locker room in which I could ask you questions about specific topics (trying not to touch a million at the same time as I usually do) + post graphs or smthn?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Why not check call flop and donk on missed turns, provided we have 2 overcards on the flop? His flop cBetting range is very wide and if we hit our TP on the turn, he's just going to barrel loose and we get value + since his range is weak on the flop, it is very often going to be weak on the turn as well, hence why we can donk and try to take it down. Balancing would be pretty problematic though, since I would never play a strong hand vs him that way (especially since he is fond of multibarreling). But will he really notice/adapt that quickly?

      That's a problem but that's again a question about specific opponents and depends. Some may even raise vs your line whilst it representing mainly PPs which fold very often. :)

      If you in the near future have any specific theory question, just post the hand link which you want to talk about and maybe have questions about into Beginner's Course locker room, I'd be happy to help you out there. It's also 10x easier for me to concentrate there on a different topic. :)

      That said, you are doing a pretty awesome job and I will try to change my attitude as best as I can.

      Thanks mate, it's not really about you only. :) Even I have sometimes bad days where I might be a bit too harsh, you are doing very good! Just keep improving and I am pretty sure you will become a good player.

      One quick question though: would you then recommend me to open my own thread in the Beginner's locker room in which I could ask you questions about specific topics (trying not to touch a million at the same time as I usually do) + post graphs or smthn?

      Yeah, exactly. Also you can get the answers for free. :) Ask as many questions you want, I am willing to help you there.