Brm for Average buy in?

    • Jimanyjerk
      Jimanyjerk
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 366
      Hey SNG folks, I'm in a bit of a predicament in regards to bank-roll (BR). I'm grinding the $1 FR 10 man Tournaments ($1 T's) on the Ongame network (OGN) and I'm trying to clear Betfair's generous $250 bonus. In 60 days, I'd need to grind around 2800 $1 t's to clear it all. Obviously this is a little bit ridiculous to ask. OGN's network traffic is good, but not great by any stretch. I can comfortably grind about 8 tables and I'd be to grind more if I could, but I'm lucky to keep 7 tables open at once for more than a few minutes.

      I am a fairly solidly winning reg over the past 700 $1 T's with an Roi of at least 5% over all (It's over 2 sites so no exact number and I know this is still a paltry sample size for any real conclusions.)

      So to summarize: while the traffic is pretty good at OGN, it's never going to give me enough to grind out the bonus nor does it fully engage or give me the opportunity to increase my multi-tabling ability; I'm fairly certain I'm a winning reg at my current stake; and I'm enthusiastic about moving up stakes to enjoy reduced rake (the prize pool is 300% the size yet the rake is only 150% larger) that still is more valuable to my grinding than just $1 T's.

      Here's the question.

      Would I be intelligent to consider averaging my bankroll to approximately 60 buy ins somewhere in between the $1 tournaments and the $3 Ts? Ex: For every 3 $1 Ts I play 1 $3 T. This gives me an average Buy-in of 1.725 (rake inclusive) and an equivalent 60 BI BR requirement of $103.5 (which I have a bit more than.) There benefits seem sound, but I have no experience with this kind of idea in practice. I would probably give this 1 or 2 tries as BR permits but any time I slip below around $95 I would return to grind strictly $1 Ts.

      I'm open to any suggestions or advice! Theory-craft, cold hard wisdom and experience, flaming, it's all valuable. Hit me with the thought hammer before I do something stupid!

      Thanks a lot,

      G.
  • 9 replies
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      Hey, G!

      I play on ongame for most of the year now and I am telling you- 60BIs by far, I mean BY FAR is not enough at all. You are risking way too much. I wouldn't go with less than 100BI at these super turbo games. No matter that is a micro stakes game. For midstakes or up, I even suggest 200+ BIs.

      If you feel you have an edge over the field, just try to get a stake and clear the bonus on time : )
    • Jimanyjerk
      Jimanyjerk
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 366
      hey thanks for the speedy reply, I'm not playing the Super-Turbo games though. I guess they wouldn't be a bad idea if I really want to clear the bonus faster :P The idea is for my BR to grow not shrink :f_biggrin:

      Does the fact that I'm just grinding (mostly) turbos with some regular speeds change my Bankroll needs significantly?
    • martinemem
      martinemem
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.07.2011 Posts: 596
      Its okay to play by 60bi, u just need to make the days shorter where u suck out i guess. Also no point in playing in bad mood.
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      What I meant by super turbos is the regular "turbos". Blind increase every 3 mins. I remember withing 7-9 hands, I was in push/fold mode already.

      60BIs by far is not enough for ongame. It's up to you of course as it's your money, but I would never recommend it to anybody.
    • Jimanyjerk
      Jimanyjerk
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 366
      Hey guys, thanks a lot for the input. I noticed that between the 3 minute blinds and the antes these games do move fast. Makes my wicked heater theory more credible :P . I'll keep the BRM Quantity in mind but my question was more related to the stakes I'm playing.

      Specifically the if I should stick to the $1 entirely or can I mix in a few higher stake games on a scale relative to my bankroll.

      I.E. For everyone 3 $1 T I play 1 $3 T. I'd just like clarification on if I should be rolled for the averaged amount (this ratio would give $1.725 as my average BI including rake, and at 100BI obviously a BR requirement of around $175.)

      @kurrkabin:
      I don't think I'm qualified for a stake :( also time is of the essence, I only have around 52 days left to generate around $555 in rake. 188 games in (Solid volume from my skill level for 3 1/2 days of grinding) and that's equivalent to almost 40 dollars in rake :f_o: So little progress so little time!!

      Thanks for the replies!

      G.
    • martinemem
      martinemem
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.07.2011 Posts: 596
      Im not sure u can calculate ur brm this way, because there WILL be bigger swings on higher limits, there fore if u want to calculate the avg bi, u should maybe sum up to 200$, or just multiplie the highest limit with a given faktor. 1.2?

      so 1+1+1+(3*1.2) / 4

      Or even more.

      Imagine day 1 u get (let say u play 50 tours) 8 1. places][ 7 2. places][ 8 3. places] All on 1$, and then u get 1 3. place and rest suckout on 3$.

      I know u might do better, but just imagine, u dont know which table u are going to loose with ur set or op to a draw.

      This approach is a little like (i think) comparable to shoving AK everytime with still 25 bb left. If u understand my point :D ?

      Highvarianse can go both ways, therefore im just saying u need to be prepared ;D

      If this is because u want to get used to the traffic @ 3$, u COULD maybe instead play 3x the amount of $ of tours. So 9 1$ tours, and 1 3$ tour instead ;D Or maybe 8-1 due to rake?
      Because then u can still say u play 3x the amount of old tours compared to new tours.

      And u wont get a super surpricing day where u feel like u play super well, and maybe get ITM 60% and still loose 10-20% br caused by the suckouts on the new tours.
    • Jimanyjerk
      Jimanyjerk
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 366
      Yeah that is true in regards to variance issues and I like your idea about the multiplication. I'll Stretch the Formula to 1+1+1+(3*1.5) / 4 and I'll also give a Bankroll of 110 BI as an added cushion and take shots on this basis Of requiring at least 100 BI to continue with taking shots. This gives a BR, rake inclusive, of about $231.

      I'm not certain I'll even achieve that by the time my bonus is done. If I manage a 5% ROI for the next few weeks and play at least 200 T a week I'll be able to test it out for at least a 2 week period before the bonus is dead and my rake-back sharply drops. In a perfect world I'm actually a crushing reg and my 11% ROI over the first 240 games is not due to chance (a dream perhaps, but a nice dream :f_biggrin: )

      Thanks for the replies! I'm more happy with this system as it still allows me the chance to take shots and benefit from the reduced rake while also saves my BR in I should hit the inevitable down-swing at the wrong time.

      Thanks again!

      G.
    • martinemem
      martinemem
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.07.2011 Posts: 596
      Nice :) Pls let me also add that u need to get that bonus idea far far away from ur game. Because u still pay fee even though u get some % back via bonus, it is far more profitable to play when u win. By this i mean when ur get a day u might be down 5 BI or something (dont know how many tables u play) but then stop, instead of thinking u have a bonus that needs to be cleared.

      If u just crush ur given limit stay like this, and dont think about that bonus. U need to increase br by winning tours, not by paying less fee.
      Therefore it is only a +ev when u reach the br needed to play 3$ comfortable.

      Just like u, i used to play 0.1$-0.5$ sngs. I was slowly crushing, but after a tilt session on nl2, i read during that night all sng articles i could contain in my head before i fall asleep with my laptop 1 inch from my head :D - i started playing 5,5$ because i felt SO confident after all those articles, and august last month i was crushing 5,5$ with a roi of 58% or something. 75 tours 19 first places, 8 second places and 9 third places.

      I was so sure i could beat 10$ in notime, so in the start of this month i played 40 10$ sngs and lost half my winnings on 5$ before i moved down again. And soon im ready to crush 10$ again :D

      My point via my xp is just that u might ALREADY be able to beat 3$. Because u play sooo many tours pr day. :D u WILL get suppriced how many fishes there still is on 3$ im sure.
      If u want someday try this, start out with only playing 2-5 tours pr day, instead of voluming the new limit, instead evaluate EVERY HAND in those tours instead (not only the one u lose) and then dont make that mistake next day. (Im surden u can find at least 1 error pr sng at least)

      Well this is only my opinion since 20% rake is simply too much.

      But as u are saying, u dont get that extra % back if u do this since u wont generate that much rake, and if u still crush small sngs with high fee, i dont see why u should move up before the bonus u said, just dont overthink that u need to clear that bonus.

      Good luck :D
    • Jimanyjerk
      Jimanyjerk
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 366
      All well said sir, I appreciate the clarity of thought. I can't say with any certainty that I'm crushing these limits yet because I don't even have 10K hands at betfair yet. I should definitely do a heavy duty analysis day. I hadn't thought of that and I appreciate the suggestion as well! I'd be surprised if I didn't find quite a few mistakes every tournament!

      After all of these posts, I agree that I should just focus on playing well and the winnings increase will compensate for the lost bonus value in the long run.

      I can just keep dreaming about 10% rake in the mean-time :f_biggrin:

      G.