Push fold ranges?

    • noz03
      noz03
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2012 Posts: 129
      I've been practicing with the ICM trainer lately and realizing how loose I should be pushing from the sb/button... but how do I adjust this against tighter or looser players?

      If fold equity goes down, showdown equity goes up, so does this balance it and I should just stick to my push range no matter what? Or?
  • 6 replies
    • Fagin
      Fagin
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.05.2008 Posts: 544
      I have just moved over to SnGs and have found the charts in this article to be excellent and they have proved to be a perfect starting ground for me.

      I have not used the ICM trainer but generally if the sb and bb are playing tight you should open up your range and if playing loose then you should tighten it up. How much by is a matter for experience and judgement. The more you play and learn and gain experience the better your judgement will get.

      AFAIK showdown equity goes up as the value of your hand goes up. The better your hand the higher your showdown equity.

      Fold equity is a different concept and as I understand it relates to the chance of the villain folding to your bet and has nothing to do with the cards you hold. You can have AA or 72os and still have the same fold equity.

      I could be wrong on either of those but that is my understanding of the concepts.
    • noz03
      noz03
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2012 Posts: 129
      Thx, is a good chart, though a little more detail on playing first on from the small blind would be nice, basically says you push any 2 which I disagree with.

      Anyway I actually get good scores on the icm trainer, usually around 90% correct and the 10% are very marginal situations anyway.... but I'm just wondering how to adjust these ranges when...

      The other players are very loose/tight.

      All the remaining players are absolutely clueless.

      In the second case I usually play tighter as I feel its not needed to risk pushing a 56s when the other players are not challenging me for my bbs. I can simply afford to wait for a little better hand. Is this correct, and how much tighter should I play?
    • C0WB0Y
      C0WB0Y
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2012 Posts: 101
      I can appreciate that you might disagree but share your reasons why!

      Cowboy
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      One has to be careful categorising players as 'tight' or 'loose' in terms of bvb shoves. Often those players who are loose in the early/mid stages of a tourney are the type who want to see a flop and "hit". However, when facing a shove they have to decide based on the absolute strength of their hand vs your range, a skill which many won't have developed (i.e you deny them the chance to see a flop before committing to their hand). So they may actually call quite tightly against open shoves. Similarly, tight players may open up their calling ranges later because they understand about hand strength (which is why they are tight earlier on) and realise you, as a reg, will likely be pushing widely from SB.

      Fagin is right that showdown equity and fold equity are separate concepts. However, I think what noz03 is saying is that, as our fold equity goes down, our showdown equity needs to increase relatively because we get called more often (which is right).

      noz03, I think you may have misinterpreted the 'first in' push chart. None of the charts suggest pushing any 2 from the SB. What it says is that for 13bb you can profitably push at least: 97s, 96s 87s, 86s 76s, 75s 65s and better hands from the SB.

      Please remember the charts are just a guide. As players improve, ranges will move closer and closer to the unexploitable Nash range.

      @noz03, as a guide, clueless players will: a) call you wider than they should in some spots (where they should be risk averse) and b) tighter in others (when the have decent hands and are getting good odds but nevertheless fold out of fear of the unknown).

      If players are tight, you can generally widen you range compared with the Nash range. If they are loose, you must tighten up. You are quite right that how much you need to push depends on how much pressure you are being put under. If the SB regularly folds to you when you are in the BB, you can aford to wait for better hands on average to push when you are in SB (i.e not take thin shoves) because your stack is not dwindling.

      All the best.
    • noz03
      noz03
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2012 Posts: 129
      Originally posted by Tim64
      One has to be careful categorising players as 'tight' or 'loose' in terms of bvb shoves. Often those players who are loose in the early/mid stages of a tourney are the type who want to see a flop and "hit". However, when facing a shove they have to decide based on the absolute strength of their hand vs your range, a skill which many won't have developed (i.e you deny them the chance to see a flop before committing to their hand). So they may actually call quite tightly against open shoves. Similarly, tight players may open up their calling ranges later because they understand about hand strength (which is why they are tight earlier on) and realise you, as a reg, will likely be pushing widely from SB.

      Fagin is right that showdown equity and fold equity are separate concepts. However, I think what noz03 is saying is that, as our fold equity goes down, our showdown equity needs to increase relatively because we get called more often (which is right).

      noz03, I think you may have misinterpreted the 'first in' push chart. None of the charts suggest pushing any 2 from the SB. What it says is that for 13bb you can profitably push at least: 97s, 96s 87s, 86s 76s, 75s 65s and better hands from the SB.

      Please remember the charts are just a guide. As players improve, ranges will move closer and closer to the unexploitable Nash range.

      @noz03, as a guide, clueless players will: a) call you wider than they should in some spots (where they should be risk averse) and b) tighter in others (when the have decent hands and are getting good odds but nevertheless fold out of fear of the unknown).

      If players are tight, you can generally widen you range compared with the Nash range. If they are loose, you must tighten up. You are quite right that how much you need to push depends on how much pressure you are being put under. If the SB regularly folds to you when you are in the BB, you can aford to wait for better hands on average to push when you are in SB (i.e not take thin shoves) because your stack is not dwindling.

      All the best.
      Thx Tim, a few things in there I didn't know I had to adjust for, like how aggressive the player in front of me is. I was always thinking I need to play tighter because I feel I'm a much better player than the other guys but didn't know exactly how.

      Is there anything else I should adjust my ranges for?

      How about the number of players left in? Obviously I should player tighter on the bubble, but is there any difference if there is 6 players or 4 players, I always get impatient and loosen up when there are so many players left in the late stages but maybe I should be playing tighter?

      Btw the reason for this thread is because dispite getting very good scores on the icm trainer (90%+), Im still not really winning in actual games, even in the micros :(
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Originally posted by noz03
      Originally posted by Tim64
      One has to be careful categorising players as 'tight' or 'loose' in terms of bvb shoves. Often those players who are loose in the early/mid stages of a tourney are the type who want to see a flop and "hit". However, when facing a shove they have to decide based on the absolute strength of their hand vs your range, a skill which many won't have developed (i.e you deny them the chance to see a flop before committing to their hand). So they may actually call quite tightly against open shoves. Similarly, tight players may open up their calling ranges later because they understand about hand strength (which is why they are tight earlier on) and realise you, as a reg, will likely be pushing widely from SB.

      Fagin is right that showdown equity and fold equity are separate concepts. However, I think what noz03 is saying is that, as our fold equity goes down, our showdown equity needs to increase relatively because we get called more often (which is right).

      noz03, I think you may have misinterpreted the 'first in' push chart. None of the charts suggest pushing any 2 from the SB. What it says is that for 13bb you can profitably push at least: 97s, 96s 87s, 86s 76s, 75s 65s and better hands from the SB.

      Please remember the charts are just a guide. As players improve, ranges will move closer and closer to the unexploitable Nash range.

      @noz03, as a guide, clueless players will: a) call you wider than they should in some spots (where they should be risk averse) and b) tighter in others (when the have decent hands and are getting good odds but nevertheless fold out of fear of the unknown).

      If players are tight, you can generally widen you range compared with the Nash range. If they are loose, you must tighten up. You are quite right that how much you need to push depends on how much pressure you are being put under. If the SB regularly folds to you when you are in the BB, you can aford to wait for better hands on average to push when you are in SB (i.e not take thin shoves) because your stack is not dwindling.

      All the best.
      Thx Tim, a few things in there I didn't know I had to adjust for, like how aggressive the player in front of me is. I was always thinking I need to play tighter because I feel I'm a much better player than the other guys but didn't know exactly how.

      Is there anything else I should adjust my ranges for?

      How about the number of players left in? Obviously I should player tighter on the bubble, but is there any difference if there is 6 players or 4 players, I always get impatient and loosen up when there are so many players left in the late stages but maybe I should be playing tighter?

      Btw the reason for this thread is because dispite getting very good scores on the icm trainer (90%+), Im still not really winning in actual games, even in the micros :(
      Well, ICM will automatically adjust the ranges according to number of players (in the sense that the fewer players, the higher your chance of cashing whereby you have to be more or less cautious accordingly. However, the stack sizes are sometimes more important than the number of players. e.g. We might need to be tighter if there are 3 players with 20bb and 2 plyers with 3bb than if there are four players all with 25bb.

      Also the payout structure. The higher the propotion of the prize pool going to first plce, the more willing we are to take risks.

      Lastly, it's hard to tell exactly where a player may be losing $. Make sure you post your postflop spots on the forum for analysis.