silver SH chart

    • frzl
      frzl
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.04.2006 Posts: 9,876
      hi folks ;)
      we noticed in this thread 1/2 SH - T9s that the silver sh chart hasn´t been translated yet.
      so for those of you who want to play sh without the knowledge of the advanced preflop article from the gold section (or just want a general advice how to play gainst unknown) i will post the german chart and try to explain it:

      http://de.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/265/3/

      basically the charts works the same way as the ones in the bronze article:
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/793/
      there are just some slight differences.

      ok lets start:

      chart 1 (Open-Raising-Chart (ORC) – First In)
      that´s just the standard orc. should be the same one which was already mentioned in the bronce article about advanced preflop play.
      it just tells which hands you should raise first in from a certain position. you can raise these hands profitable against any kind of opponent.

      chart 2 (Aktionen gegen Limper)
      this chart tells you what to do against limpers in front of you and i think it´s pretty self-explanatory.

      chart 3 (Aktionen gegen 1 Raiser (und 1 Caller))
      in this chart the hands are listed you can play against a raiser in front of you.
      the postition on the top isn´t your own position but the position where the raise comes from. so you can 3-bet the hands which are listed under a certain position. if there is no caller after the raise you can 3-bet the hands listed next to "ohne call" (if there is one caller -> "mit call"). i think the blind thing is again self-explanatory (my new favourite word btw :) )

      chart 4 (Aktionen gegen 1 Raise und
      mindestens 1 Call)
      here we have the hands you can call after a raise and at least (!) 1 caller

      chart 5 (Aktionen gegen Raise
      und Reraise)
      ... :) . against a 3-bet you should cap TT+, AQs+ and AK

      chart 6 (Big Blind Defense)
      again pretty obvious imo. on the top there are again the positions where the raise comes from. this chart only applies when you are in the BB (ovbiously ;) ).
      the hands on the left of the "/" are the hands you can call against a raise from the certain position and the hands on the right you can raise.
      e.g. if CO raises your BB you can call with 22+, A2s+ etc. and raise with 77+ and A9s+

      i hope i wrote everything right ;) . as i said most things are just the same as in the bronze article. don´t hesitate to ask if you have any further questions.

      btw: this charts should be used against UNKNOWN opponents. so if you have any reads or pt stats: use them :)
  • 17 replies
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Nice work. :)

      The articles have to have version numbers in it. This nowis so confusing. (I still don't like raising T9s anyway and wn't change my mind in that point.)

      EDIT: I had to remove your directlink as it was available for everyone.
    • wilm
      wilm
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.07.2006 Posts: 1,583
      Originally posted by ciRith

      EDIT: I had to remove your directlink as it was available for everyone.
      Great now i still cant read the first "german" chart that frzl posted =)

      T9s = still a raise on my charts
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      So you seem to have the right one or whatever. I'm sorry that you can't get the chart now but I think you ca understand the reason why I had to remove it. :)
    • wilm
      wilm
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.07.2006 Posts: 1,583
      Originally posted by ciRith
      So you seem to have the right one or whatever. I'm sorry that you can't get the chart now but I think you ca understand the reason why I had to remove it. :)
      U should have removed the link after i had downloaded the chart ciRith =) . Could u please check the chart im using and make some comments abouth it? Because u allready said that T9s aint a raise. What else is wrong in my chart because its gonna take a while before i get back playing for PS.de and dont wanna leak anymore money away then im allready doing atm =)
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      You should play according to equity, only follow the ORC. You can use the BB defend chart, but adjust a bit to the players, raise a lot --> defend more and vice versa.

      I actually dislike that chart, since it's mostly based on assumptions, and not on equity. It's a good guideline for starters, but once you are used to SH you have to play a bit different preflop imo.
    • wilm
      wilm
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.07.2006 Posts: 1,583
      Originally posted by Yoghi
      I actually dislike that chart, since it's mostly based on assumptions, and not on equity. It's a good guideline for starters, but once you are used to SH you have to play a bit different preflop imo.
      Like how its probally explained in the advanced preflop articles at the Gold section?
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Originally posted by wilm
      Originally posted by ciRith
      So you seem to have the right one or whatever. I'm sorry that you can't get the chart now but I think you ca understand the reason why I had to remove it. :)
      U should have removed the link after i had downloaded the chart ciRith =) . Could u please check the chart im using and make some comments abouth it? Because u allready said that T9s aint a raise. What else is wrong in my chart because its gonna take a while before i get back playing for PS.de and dont wanna leak anymore money away then im allready doing atm =)
      I'm not sure which charts you mean. The german one is for SH the english for FR. The ORC is the same but everything else differs because calling in FR is more oftek ok than at SH (with small pairs for example).

      Take a look at the isolating range:

      FR: Raising 1 limper TT+ calling 55+
      SH: Rasing 1 limper 55+

      FR: Raising 2 limpers JJ+ calling 22+
      SH: Rasing 88+ calling 44+

      FR: Raising 3+ limpers QQ+ calling 22+
      SH: Raising 3+ limpers 99+ calling 22+
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      Originally posted by wilm
      Originally posted by Yoghi
      I actually dislike that chart, since it's mostly based on assumptions, and not on equity. It's a good guideline for starters, but once you are used to SH you have to play a bit different preflop imo.
      Like how its probally explained in the advanced preflop articles at the Gold section?
      It's all in 1 chart. The most useful 1 ever though. Just get gold, it's worth it ^^
    • Hawat
      Hawat
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2008 Posts: 237
      I'm getting more confused with every post.

      Cirith, you're looking at the FR raise+calls chart, the isolation chart is in the next page (btw, I'd swap ORC and BB defense charts so it'd be one page for playing without raises behind and the other one for playing after a raise).

      Originally posted by Yoghi
      It's all in 1 chart. The most useful 1 ever though. Just get gold, it's worth it ^^
      What chart are you exactly talking about here?

      A general question about all these charts: What do you do with pre-raise limpers? The FR chart says the order doesn't matter, but I think that you don't have the same opinion.

      Can I use the complete SB chart from FR when playing SH?

      And a question about playing from the blinds I'll leave for another thread.

      Please, someone give unique names to the charts!!
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      Approx charts; http://de.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=34865&page=1
    • Hawat
      Hawat
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2008 Posts: 237
      Thanks. Still waiting for a detailed explanation of those charts. I've read some comment by Cirith and there are some explanations on Cornholio's videos, but I'll leave it for when I've beaten 1/2FR or .5/1SH (or, if this doesn't get better, for my second try at beating them :( ).

      Still, why are they gold charts if they are in the forum?
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      It's a gold forum ;)

      What's the problem with them? I can explain it
    • Hawat
      Hawat
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2008 Posts: 237
      Any advice about dealing with pre-raise limpers?

      @Yoghi: I'd never read about gold forums :) I'll leave that chart for another day, thanks.
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      In german forums there are a lot of forums which are only accessible for Gold+ or something.
    • strat9
      strat9
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.02.2008 Posts: 511
      Are there any aspects to the bronze charts (FR) that can be applied to SH, or used along side the silver charts?

      Such as calling from SB? I realize there are odds on the gold chart but they contradict the bronze charts sort of. Everything else in SH seems to be looser but it seems from the SB the charts tend to tighten up. For instance, bronze charts say to complete SB with any pair vs. one or more limper, but in the gold charts they get 7.5:1, which is 3 limpers (2.5 actually, I think). Any suited requires 2 limpers, where as the bronze requires 1. Plus, Ax gets 20.5:1 odds which I don't think is even possible.

      Also, (silver chart) when there is a raise and two callers, I should fold AQo but call with KJs? Why is this? Is it because of the risk of being dominated?
      Some of the stuff on these threads makes some sense, but they're not quite clear to me yet.

      I guess I'm looking for some help reconciling the differences between the charts. I just switched from FR to SH .5/1 and am using the silver chart, with the gold calling odds for defending BB and SB. I am currently ignoring the bronze charts and learning about the other stuff on the gold chart, but not putting it into practice yet.
    • G1lius
      G1lius
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.10.2007 Posts: 308
      Originally posted by strat9
      Are there any aspects to the bronze charts (FR) that can be applied to SH, or used along side the silver charts?

      Such as calling from SB? I realize there are odds on the gold chart but they contradict the bronze charts sort of. Everything else in SH seems to be looser but it seems from the SB the charts tend to tighten up. For instance, bronze charts say to complete SB with any pair vs. one or more limper, but in the gold charts they get 7.5:1, which is 3 limpers (2.5 actually, I think). Any suited requires 2 limpers, where as the bronze requires 1. Plus, Ax gets 20.5:1 odds which I don't think is even possible.

      Also, (silver chart) when there is a raise and two callers, I should fold AQo but call with KJs? Why is this? Is it because of the risk of being dominated?
      Some of the stuff on these threads makes some sense, but they're not quite clear to me yet.

      I guess I'm looking for some help reconciling the differences between the charts. I just switched from FR to SH .5/1 and am using the silver chart, with the gold calling odds for defending BB and SB. I am currently ignoring the bronze charts and learning about the other stuff on the gold chart, but not putting it into practice yet.
      I'm not playing on a site that's tracked to PS, so I can't look at the new gold charts, but on the silver chart it says to raise 55+ after one limper. and I do think that's the most +ev thing to do.

      The AQo problem is indeed weird. But I think it's the "Actions against 1 raiser" chart that you should look at, so AQo is a 3-bet. The chart-titles aren't really clear.
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Originally posted by strat9
      Are there any aspects to the bronze charts (FR) that can be applied to SH, or used along side the silver charts?

      Such as calling from SB? I realize there are odds on the gold chart but they contradict the bronze charts sort of. Everything else in SH seems to be looser but it seems from the SB the charts tend to tighten up. For instance, bronze charts say to complete SB with any pair vs. one or more limper, but in the gold charts they get 7.5:1, which is 3 limpers (2.5 actually, I think). Any suited requires 2 limpers, where as the bronze requires 1. Plus, Ax gets 20.5:1 odds which I don't think is even possible.

      Also, (silver chart) when there is a raise and two callers, I should fold AQo but call with KJs? Why is this? Is it because of the risk of being dominated?
      Some of the stuff on these threads makes some sense, but they're not quite clear to me yet.

      I guess I'm looking for some help reconciling the differences between the charts. I just switched from FR to SH .5/1 and am using the silver chart, with the gold calling odds for defending BB and SB. I am currently ignoring the bronze charts and learning about the other stuff on the gold chart, but not putting it into practice yet.
      Here you go:

      silver charts