Poker and Money

    • cozacu
      cozacu
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 1,379
      Hi, my name is Robert and i have a short story that i would like to share with you, a lot of you might know all this and had this kind of "revelation" but it's always good to remember, others might hear this and think about it for the first time.

      I`m still a micro player, i don't have a ton of experience, i have @300k hands of cash games only(100k nl10), i started with the pokerstrategy capital of 50$ at nl2 FullTilt and over time i managed to make a profit of over 1100$... to some of you that might seem very little, it may be that's not important for me right now because poker it's not all about intelligence, or talent it's about much more... your speed of progress will be influenced by your personality, your discipline and by more than anything else your psychology!

      Right now i find my self at a "difficult" point of my poker "career", and i hate my self for getting my self into this situation... some of you know that in this life the key element for happiness is progress, i stoped progressing... and it's not because of bad beats, it's not because i`ve been running bad, not because i`m not willing to put the time in, to work on my game and become better, but it's because of my psychology. Some of you heard this a million times, but from my point of view one of the biggest mistakes is to associate poker with making money. As long as you are playing poker just to try to make money(for booze, for pizza, for a trip, for a car) it's most likely you won`t make it. If you say "I`m thinking in BI`s, i don't care about the money"... are you sure your are 100% honest to your self?

      You see my incorrect point of view on poker had a huge impact on my game, and set major set backs in my progress... i don't want you to make the same mistake as i did... it's not enough to say "i don't care about the money", you most have a different approach to poker, you have to completely focus on becoming better - this is something i knew but never really understood how to do. Even if you don't care in the first stage about the actual money, you`ll care about losing, you`ll get frustrated then you`re going to lose some more... and it's not because of the variance(even if you`re on a downswing you`re most likely losing more than you should), not because you`re a bad player, or because you`re not smart enough, or you`re not talented enough, but because you`re not focusing on the right thing. You focus on a bigger bankroll, more money and on wining instead of focusing on your growth as a player. You want to see results, and you want to see them now... ok i had a bad day but i want to see them tomorrow... ok,i had a bad week but i have to see the positive results at the end of the month - WRONG! You`re not looking for the right stuff, not looking in the right direction an completely focusing on the wrong thing by expecting financial results. Don't get me wrong, you most keep an eye on your bankroll so you move up and down the limits as your own BRM rules, but don't look in your bankroll for results but feel them, when you`ll feel them most likely your bankroll is going to tell you the same thing - "you`re growing man!", sometimes it will take a while until it does but as long as you improve and just focus on getting better your bankroll will follow.

      In conclusion what i wanted to tell you with this whole long post is: don't think about the profit, and never ever ever ever ever let your self think at any given moment at the poker table - I MOST WIN!(because of the money, because of my reputation, because i just HAVE to win, or whatever else would be your reason) because this will lead to bad decisions witch can lead to tilt witch will give you serious problems in going up in limits and improving your self as a poker player.I hope i stressed enough on this "FOCUS" thing, and it will help you save a lot of your time. Remind your self every time you sit down at the tables, what do you have to focus on and what are you after - making better decisions, learning from mistakes and becoming better.


      I wish you all the best!
  • 24 replies
    • jules97
      jules97
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2012 Posts: 1,449
      from Reminiscences of a Stock Operator



      “Why, in Harding’s office one winter a little bunch of high flyers spent thirty to forty thousand dollars for an overcoat – and not one of them lived to wear it. It so happened that a prominent floor trader – who since has become world-famous as one of the dollar-a-year men – came down to the Exchange wearing a fur overcoat lined with sea otter. In those days, before furs went up sky high, that coat was valued at only ten thousand dollars. Well, one of the chaps in Harding’s office, Bob Keown, decided to get a coat lined with Russian sable. He priced one uptown. The cost was about the same, ten thousand dollars.

      “That’s the devil of a lot of money,” objected one of the fellows.

      “Oh, fair! fair!” admitted Bob Keown amiably. “About a week’s wages – unless you guys promise to present it to me as a slight but sincere token of the esteem in which you hold the nicest man in the office. Do I hear the presentation speech? No? Very well. I shall let the stock market buy it for me!”

      “Why do you want a sable coat?” asked Ed Harding.

      “It would look particularly well on a man of my inches,” replied Bob, drawing himself up.

      “And how did you say you were going to pay for it?” asked Jim Murphy, who was the star tip-chaser of the office.

      “By judicious investment of a temporary character, James. That’s how,” answered Bob, who knew that Murphy merely wanted a top.

      Sure enough, Jimmy asked, “What stock are you going to buy?”

      “Wrong as usual, friend. This is no time to buy anything. I propose to sell five thousand Steel. It ought to go down ten points at the least. I’ll just take two and a half points net. That is conservative, isn’t it?”

      “What do you hear about it?” asked Murphy eagerly. He was a tall thin man with black hair and a hungry look, due to his never going out to lunch for fear of missing something on the tape.

      “I hear that coat’s the most becoming I ever planned to get.” He turned to Harding and said, “Ed, sell five thousand U.S. Steel common at the market. To-day, darling!”

      He was a plunger, Bob was, and liked to indulge in humorous talk. It was his way of letting the world know that he had an iron nerve. He sold five thousand Steel, and the stock promptly went up. Not being half as big an ass he seemed when he talked, Bob stopped his loss at one and a half points and confided to the office that the New York climate was too benign for fur coats. They were unhealthy and ostentatious. The rest of the fellows jeered. But it was not long before one of them bought some Union Pacific to pay for the coat. He lost eighteen hundred dollars and said sables were all right for the outside of a woman’s wrap, but not for the inside of a garment intended to be worn by a modest and intelligent man.

      After that, one after another of the fellows tried to coax the market to pay for that coat. One day I said I would buy it to keep the office from going broke. But they all said that it wasn’t a sporting thing to do; that if I wanted the coat for myself I ought to let the market give it to me. But Ed Harding strongly approved of my intention and that same afternoon I went to the furrier’s to buy it. I found out that a man from Chicago had bought it the week before.

      That was only one case. There isn’t a man in Wall Street who has not lost money trying to make the market pay for an automobile or a bracelet or a motor boat or a painting. I could build a huge hospital with the birthday presents that the tight-fisted stock market has refused to pay for. In fact, of all hoodoos in Wall Street I think the resolve to induce the stock market to act as a fairy godmother is the busiest and most persistent.

      Like all well-authenticated hoodoos this has its reason for being. What does a man do when he sets out to make the stock market pay for a sudden need? Why, he merely hopes. He gambles. He therefore runs much greater risks than he would if he were speculating intelligently, in accordance with opinions or beliefs logically arrived at after a dispassionate study of underlying conditions. To begin with, he is after an immediate profit. He cannot afford to wait. The market must be nice to him at once if at all. He flatters himself that he is not asking more than to place an even-money bet. Because he is prepared to run quick – say, stop his loss at two points when all he hopes to make is two points – he hugs the fallacy that he is merely taking a fifty-fifty change. Why, I’ve known men to lose thousands of dollars on such trades, particularly on purchases made at the height of a bull market just before a moderate reaction. It certainly is no way to trade.”
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,916
      I once worked for a company that made beer.

      They made money doing it. Lots of money.
      They got "caught" with too much cash on the books, compared to their share price, and were the subject of a hostile takeover bid.

      The idea is that the stock price was too low, and the if a buyer could offer the outstanding shareholders 2.5x the going rate, they could gain control of the company, pocket the cash, sell of the assets and make boodles of cash.

      The company sought help from an outside buyer.
      The 3rd party buyer, made an offer, and took over the company. They all the breweries open and we all stayed employed, and were glad.

      However they switched from making beer to earn money, to making money using beer to do it. They cut back staff, they sold off breweries in smaller markets -- or in bigger markets where the land value was "too high".

      They went from market leader to pretty much a non-entity.

      The comparison to poker is this:
      Like the OP says, if you are playing poker, and as a result make money, that is a healthy outlook.

      If you focus on the money, and try to make more by "forcing" yourself, you are on a fast track to disaster.
    • cozacu
      cozacu
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 1,379
      Thx VorpalF2F for sharing that story and underlining the main theme of this topic.

      It's seems so basic, so simple... like everyone knows this, hell i knew this but i still made this mistake and i feel like i made it over and over at the poker tables. The best month that I had for 20k hands was incredible for me, i had like a 18bb/100 yes i was on a upswing but for a coincidence was the month when i looked less often in the cashier... i`m not a cashier maniac, but that month before i closed the platform if i saw i was in the green i closed the software, never bothered about calculating how much i made for x day(i often do this mistake of calculating winnings for the day)... in Hm i didn't care about how much it says, somtimes HM was wrong, and anyway i was there to analyze my game not check on my broll... if you check on your daily results, if they are positive, don't :) ) if they are negative don't let them bother you just stick to BRM
    • maythany
      maythany
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.10.2011 Posts: 1,189
      I think what you were trying to say is not that you shouldn't care about the money you invested in poker, but accept that you can lose this money as losing money is part of the game. Care about the money, but accept that you may lose it all.

      You dictate becoming a better poker player rather than focusing on financial results. I do agree, but is our success not based solely on our financial success? For example, say a University student with a major in sociology graduated with a 3.0 GPA, but he/she can't land a job in that field and is now working a minimum wage job at a no-name place. Are they really successful?

      There's a lot more I want to post, but I am heading out to go somewhere.

      If my opinion is flawed, I welcome all criticism as I am very interested in this post.

      Thanks,

      MB
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by maythany
      You dictate becoming a better poker player rather than focusing on financial results. I do agree, but is our success not based solely on our financial success?
      I really disagree with this. Would you rather have a minimum wage job, no spending money but be happy with your life OR a shit ton of money but be miserable, always wanting more money, with no friends and no family ties etc doing nothing but 60 hour weeks in a stressful work environment?? Equating success solely with financial success is sad, there are so much more important things than money in life.
    • maritsula
      maritsula
      Silver
      Joined: 19.12.2011 Posts: 905
      excellent thread guys.

      There is stuff here that can help me personally as well. Too often i find myself making many of the mistakes mentioned here. If you want to progress as a player you need to work on your game and improve contiously.
    • maritsula
      maritsula
      Silver
      Joined: 19.12.2011 Posts: 905
      Originally posted by maythany
      I think what you were trying to say is not that you shouldn't care about the money you invested in poker, but accept that you can lose this money as losing money is part of the game. Care about the money, but accept that you may lose it all.

      You dictate becoming a better poker player rather than focusing on financial results. I do agree, but is our success not based solely on our financial success? For example, say a University student with a major in sociology graduated with a 3.0 GPA, but he/she can't land a job in that field and is now working a minimum wage job at a no-name place. Are they really successful?

      There's a lot more I want to post, but I am heading out to go somewhere.

      If my opinion is flawed, I welcome all criticism as I am very interested in this post.

      Thanks,

      MB
      it depends what you want out of life I guess. But yeah you are partially correct.

      What the guy is trying to say, is that poker players trying to become semi=
      -pro / pro, must focus on improving their game instead of how much money they are earning. And by doing they will earn more money than before.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,916
      Originally posted by metza
      Originally posted by maythany
      You dictate becoming a better poker player rather than focusing on financial results. I do agree, but is our success not based solely on our financial success?
      I really disagree with this. Would you rather have a minimum wage job, no spending money but be happy with your life OR a shit ton of money but be miserable, always wanting more money, with no friends and no family ties etc doing nothing but 60 hour weeks in a stressful work environment?? Equating success solely with financial success is sad, there are so much more important things than money in life.
      "I've been poor, and I've been rich. Rich is better".
      Supposedly Mae West.

      When we're poor, we think we have money problems. We don't -- we have "lack of money" problems. These are usually easier to deal with than true money problems. Money problems tear marriages apart, cause partners, families, business and friends to go after each other's throats.

      I make a very good living at a job that is enjoyable, challenging and well-paid. Even so, the happiest times of my life were when my kids were little, and we lived from job to job and paycheck to paycheck.

      The biggest single factor in being so happy then was the fact that we were "carefree" -- no assets, so largely no real responsibilities. We could do fun things totally spontaneously, and no-one outside of our family knew or cared where and when we went. Now I have a house, a couple of cars, so much "stuff" it is ridiculous. If I want to go to California tomorrow -- or even just sleep in -- I have to inform bosses, the people I supervise etc etc.

      Would I go back to the way it was when I was "poor"? No, thanks.

      Another quote:
      "Some people are so poor, all they have is money"
      --Unknown

      To boil it down:
      Although money might be the measure of a poker player's success, it cannot be his goal. Success itself must be the goal. Each day, each session, each hand improve your selection, your hand reading and your decision making. Those are the steps, success is the journey.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by metza
      Originally posted by maythany
      You dictate becoming a better poker player rather than focusing on financial results. I do agree, but is our success not based solely on our financial success?
      I really disagree with this. Would you rather have a minimum wage job, no spending money but be happy with your life OR a shit ton of money but be miserable, always wanting more money, with no friends and no family ties etc doing nothing but 60 hour weeks in a stressful work environment?? Equating success solely with financial success is sad, there are so much more important things than money in life.
      Your thinking is so way off. Basically your saying if you get rich you'll be miserable? I think that odds are that if your rich the chances of being miserable are way lower then if you grind minimum wage for 40 years.

      I'm not saying money's everything, but being broke and constantly worrying about paying the bills, calculating if you can afford to buy a new comp or w/e definitely sucks and chances that you'll be miserable are way higher if your broke.

      As for poker, being results oriented and focusing on improving your game is pretty much what everyone knows, but not everyone knows how to do it.
    • Phgrinder
      Phgrinder
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.02.2009 Posts: 1,002
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      Originally posted by metza
      Originally posted by maythany
      You dictate becoming a better poker player rather than focusing on financial results. I do agree, but is our success not based solely on our financial success?
      I really disagree with this. Would you rather have a minimum wage job, no spending money but be happy with your life OR a shit ton of money but be miserable, always wanting more money, with no friends and no family ties etc doing nothing but 60 hour weeks in a stressful work environment?? Equating success solely with financial success is sad, there are so much more important things than money in life.
      "I've been poor, and I've been rich. Rich is better".
      Supposedly Mae West.

      When we're poor, we think we have money problems. We don't -- we have "lack of money" problems. These are usually easier to deal with than true money problems. Money problems tear marriages apart, cause partners, families, business and friends to go after each other's throats.

      I make a very good living at a job that is enjoyable, challenging and well-paid. Even so, the happiest times of my life were when my kids were little, and we lived from job to job and paycheck to paycheck.

      The biggest single factor in being so happy then was the fact that we were "carefree" -- no assets, so largely no real responsibilities. We could do fun things totally spontaneously, and no-one outside of our family knew or cared where and when we went. Now I have a house, a couple of cars, so much "stuff" it is ridiculous. If I want to go to California tomorrow -- or even just sleep in -- I have to inform bosses, the people I supervise etc etc.

      Would I go back to the way it was when I was "poor"? No, thanks.

      Another quote:
      "Some people are so poor, all they have is money"
      --Unknown

      To boil it down:
      Although money might be the measure of a poker player's success, it cannot be his goal. Success itself must be the goal. Each day, each session, each hand improve your selection, your hand reading and your decision making. Those are the steps, success is the journey.

      +1
    • maythany
      maythany
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.10.2011 Posts: 1,189
      Originally posted by Phgrinder
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      Originally posted by metza
      Originally posted by maythany
      You dictate becoming a better poker player rather than focusing on financial results. I do agree, but is our success not based solely on our financial success?
      I really disagree with this. Would you rather have a minimum wage job, no spending money but be happy with your life OR a shit ton of money but be miserable, always wanting more money, with no friends and no family ties etc doing nothing but 60 hour weeks in a stressful work environment?? Equating success solely with financial success is sad, there are so much more important things than money in life.
      "I've been poor, and I've been rich. Rich is better".
      Supposedly Mae West.

      When we're poor, we think we have money problems. We don't -- we have "lack of money" problems. These are usually easier to deal with than true money problems. Money problems tear marriages apart, cause partners, families, business and friends to go after each other's throats.

      I make a very good living at a job that is enjoyable, challenging and well-paid. Even so, the happiest times of my life were when my kids were little, and we lived from job to job and paycheck to paycheck.

      The biggest single factor in being so happy then was the fact that we were "carefree" -- no assets, so largely no real responsibilities. We could do fun things totally spontaneously, and no-one outside of our family knew or cared where and when we went. Now I have a house, a couple of cars, so much "stuff" it is ridiculous. If I want to go to California tomorrow -- or even just sleep in -- I have to inform bosses, the people I supervise etc etc.

      Would I go back to the way it was when I was "poor"? No, thanks.

      Another quote:
      "Some people are so poor, all they have is money"
      --Unknown

      To boil it down:
      Although money might be the measure of a poker player's success, it cannot be his goal. Success itself must be the goal. Each day, each session, each hand improve your selection, your hand reading and your decision making. Those are the steps, success is the journey.

      +1

      This guy.
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Good post Phgrinder, fully agree with you.

      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Originally posted by metza
      Originally posted by maythany
      You dictate becoming a better poker player rather than focusing on financial results. I do agree, but is our success not based solely on our financial success?
      I really disagree with this. Would you rather have a minimum wage job, no spending money but be happy with your life OR a shit ton of money but be miserable, always wanting more money, with no friends and no family ties etc doing nothing but 60 hour weeks in a stressful work environment?? Equating success solely with financial success is sad, there are so much more important things than money in life.
      Your thinking is so way off. Basically your saying if you get rich you'll be miserable? I think that odds are that if your rich the chances of being miserable are way lower then if you grind minimum wage for 40 years.
      [/B]
      I'm not saying money's everything, but being broke and constantly worrying about paying the bills, calculating if you can afford to buy a new comp or w/e definitely sucks and chances that you'll be miserable are way higher if your broke.
      My thinking isn't "off" as you rudely put it, you just didn't understand my point. Obviously I am not saying rich=miserable as you misconstrued, I just gave those two examples of hypothetical people: one has happiness and one has money, to illustrate the point of which is preferable. I thought it was fairly simple.

      Bolded = claim which is completely unsubstantiated. There is absolutely no proof of correlation between money and happiness and there probably never will be. There are happy people with no money at all, and there are millionaires who are depressed, and of course, vice versa. Phgrinder's post sums it up well.
    • cozacu
      cozacu
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 1,379
      We started from poker and money... and we ended up at life and money ... poker=life??? :) ) I read all the posts and i`m happy that this theme got your attention and interest. As i stated my self, knowing you don't have to think about the money and actually not doing it are two separate things. "You most stay guard at the door of your mind" - witch is not easy.

      Regarding that a players poker career`s success is measured in financial result might be true but if you want to "evaluate" your financial success in poker don't do it on a daily bases, you may do it at the end of the week or preferable at the end of the month... but if you play 10k/month those results will still not be accurate. Bottom line - take the money out of the equation(preferable for as long as possible if you`re not playing for a living or you need this money for some important reasons), every time you sit down at the tables repeat after me: "I`m here to play my best, i`m here to learn from mistakes, i`m here to become better" :) Might be silly but i highly recommend you do this... it needs like 5sec and it will help change your focus.

      Now back to life and money... the concept of being "rich" or "poor" it's just a mental state, you can feel rich with 3k$/month , you can feel average with 3k$/month or even poor, it all depends on where you live, what's your life style and what are your expectations. But if you feel like you would like more, you want a better life style (or just a more expensive one), you want a bigger house, another car... just like in poker don't focus on "i need more money"... but on how and what you do in order to earn the money that you "need". Another good quot "we say we want to make money, but the only people who make money work in a mint, the rest of us have to earn money".
    • maythany
      maythany
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.10.2011 Posts: 1,189
      Originally posted by cozacu
      We started from poker and money... and we ended up at life and money ... poker=life??? :) ) I read all the posts and i`m happy that this theme got your attention and interest. As i stated my self, knowing you don't have to think about the money and actually not doing it are two separate things. "You most stay guard at the door of your mind" - witch is not easy.

      Regarding that a players poker career`s success is measured in financial result might be true but if you want to "evaluate" your financial success in poker don't do it on a daily bases, you may do it at the end of the week or preferable at the end of the month... but if you play 10k/month those results will still not be accurate. Bottom line - take the money out of the equation(preferable for as long as possible if you`re not playing for a living or you need this money for some important reasons), every time you sit down at the tables repeat after me: "I`m here to play my best, i`m here to learn from mistakes, i`m here to become better" :) Might be silly but i highly recommend you do this... it needs like 5sec and it will help change your focus.

      Now back to life and money... the concept of being "rich" or "poor" it's just a mental state, you can feel rich with 3k$/month , you can feel average with 3k$/month or even poor, it all depends on where you live, what's your life style and what are your expectations. But if you feel like you would like more, you want a better life style (or just a more expensive one), you want a bigger house, another car... just like in poker don't focus on "i need more money"... but on how and what you do in order to earn the money that you "need". Another good quot "we say we want to make money, but the only people who make money work in a mint, the rest of us have to earn money".
      +1

      Thanks for this, you have no idea how much this helped me. To be better, you must want to be better and money shouldn't be our only influence.
    • cozacu
      cozacu
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 1,379
      maythany

      I`m glad i was able to help. :)
    • cozacu
      cozacu
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 1,379
      I`m very glad people enjoyed this subject and i just found something strange and very interesting on youtube that i though i would share with you guys. Take a look

    • quailroger93
      quailroger93
      Basic
      Joined: 11.12.2012 Posts: 16
      I know that we need money in order to play casino games but we must see to it that we must control and focus on things that we much needed.
    • IngridN
      IngridN
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2011 Posts: 12,162
    • cozacu
      cozacu
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 1,379
      Thx IngridN ;) Good video
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