Downswing

  • 18 replies
    • ragney
      ragney
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.08.2010 Posts: 2,417
      There is no guarantee that you will get upswing after a downswing. The size between in downswing and upswing is based on your skill level. The higher your winrate, the lower the chance that a downswing will occur.

      So if you think you have way too often downswings, improve your game. Chances are high you have (major) leaks.

      If you are playing big field MTTs/SNGs/HU/PLO, 50BI swings are standard.
    • Spaxxan
      Spaxxan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.04.2010 Posts: 506
      When I have a downswing, I sometimes go down a level :)
      Maybe analyze all the big hands afterwards. (see, so I've played the hand correctly)

      And then volume volume volume;)
      Be positive it will turn eventually!

      Good Luck!
    • ExternalUseOnly
      ExternalUseOnly
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2010 Posts: 3,373
      Hey FarligeJohn

      First of all i've moved your thread to the Learning To Win board. This is where you will find threads about things like mindset issues and ways you can improve yourself in order to see the best progress on the tables.

      Why don't you start by telling us a little more information? What games and stakes are you currently playing? How much of a downswing are you on at the minute you have any graph to show us? Maybe you can post some stats to see if you have any really obvious leaks?

      Are you posting hands regularly in the hand evaluation forums? Another great way to spot any glaring leaks and make sure you are making correct decisions.

      Try, if you haven't already, reading this thread and if that doesn't help you enough post in there and ask our experts some questions.

      As long as you feel like you are playing your best and are making the best decisions then you should be happy and keep playing and playing and eventually the results will start to show.

      Good luck hope to see you posting again soon

      Carl
    • Chowchow12
      Chowchow12
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.06.2012 Posts: 338
      Had some big losses today too. Feel yeah man. Just have to keep improving. I watch some videos, go through my hands, and then, and most importantly, take a break! Tilting can even just be some frusteration.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,901
      Originally posted by Spaxxan
      When I have a downswing, I sometimes go down a level :)
      Maybe analyze all the big hands afterwards. (see, so I've played the hand correctly)

      And then volume volume volume;)
      Be positive it will turn eventually!

      Good Luck!
      Yeah, sometimes you're FORCED down a level.
      Like when the client tells you that you don't have enough to reload to full stack.

      In three days I dropped 6 BI at NL 20, and had to drop to NL 10 -- or re-deposit.
      I dropped to NL 10 and kept up the trend.

      I got to thinking it was me, and some of them could have been avoided, but if you "avoid" value betting the nut flush, then over all you will avoid winning a lot.

      This is now the largest downswing I've ever had -- not the longest though.
      Fortunately, I ran pretty good earlier this month, so I'm only a bit below where I started. So it goes.

      So advice:
        Resist the urge to crawl into a nit-hole.
        Try to talk through each hand.
        Try not to play any hand "automatically"
        Reduce your bluffing to the minimum necessary -- CBets, for example.
        Depending on what limit you play, pick a couple of spots and make a show of being something you're not.
            For example:
              --check down to the showdown with a decent hand -- this will make you look passive. Pretend to be passive early, then don't be passive.
              -- or You can also pretend to be a LAGtard, or a calling station or whatever, then after you've established what you're not, play your A-Game.
        If you're playing the lower limits, forget about your image and just play sound poker -- they won't notice anyway.
        Study at least 1 hour each day, preferably before a session.

      Good luck, & hang in there
      --VS
    • fenelonpoker
      fenelonpoker
      Global
      Joined: 24.08.2012 Posts: 15
      i think it is all bs anyway,at the end of the day poker=gambling and the only ones that will always win are the poker rooms that will get the rake money no matter what and affiliates like pokerstrategy...i went into a more than 15 bi downswing getting the money in ahead 90% of the time and being card dead for 2,5k hands,so whats the logic on that?
    • zobupasts
      zobupasts
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.04.2009 Posts: 310
      Originally posted by fenelonpoker
      i think it is all bs anyway,at the end of the day poker=gambling and the only ones that will always win are the poker rooms that will get the rake money no matter what and affiliates like pokerstrategy...
      I'm winning at poker for a long time and I can assure you that I'm neither a pokerroom nor an affiliate.

      Originally posted by fenelonpoker
      i went into a more than 15 bi downswing getting the money in ahead 90% of the time and being card dead for 2,5k hands,so whats the logic on that?
      Variance.
    • fenelonpoker
      fenelonpoker
      Global
      Joined: 24.08.2012 Posts: 15
      tell me then how much profit do you get from it? do you make enough money to make a livin out of it? or are you playing nl5-nl20 for peanuts?
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      Originally posted by fenelonpoker
      i think it is all bs anyway,at the end of the day poker=gambling and the only ones that will always win are the poker rooms that will get the rake money no matter what and affiliates like pokerstrategy...i went into a more than 15 bi downswing getting the money in ahead 90% of the time and being card dead for 2,5k hands,so whats the logic on that?
      this poster knows what is going on

      this may or may not be my actual personal opinion
    • fenelonpoker
      fenelonpoker
      Global
      Joined: 24.08.2012 Posts: 15
      all i'm saying is if you want to play poker you better be ready to lose a lot because there is no logic to it,people come to sites like pokerstrategy thinking that will get them winning all the time,but all they can learn is how to lose less,if you want a game of skill play chess
    • zobupasts
      zobupasts
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.04.2009 Posts: 310
      I personally know that it is possible to make money by playing poker. You just have to study the game hard enough.
    • ExternalUseOnly
      ExternalUseOnly
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2010 Posts: 3,373
      Originally posted by fenelonpoker
      all i'm saying is if you want to play poker you better be ready to lose a lot because there is no logic to it,people come to sites like pokerstrategy thinking that will get them winning all the time,but all they can learn is how to lose less,if you want a game of skill play chess
      If you are ready to work hard enough then all the tools are here for you to make thousands of $ per month eventually and we have many members who do this. It takes a lot of hard work to become a solid winning player and most will never get to the level of being able to earn enough to make a living solely from poker but we have a good amount of players who do. Just check out the blog section, full of success stories and stories that will be successes in the future if they keep playing and working hard on their game. Why do you say there is no logic to it?

      Regards
      Carl
    • fenelonpoker
      fenelonpoker
      Global
      Joined: 24.08.2012 Posts: 15
      there is no logic to it because in theory any starting hand can win,and what happens more often is that you will get the money in ahead,lose,try again,lose,reloadand call it variance.and if you have to drop down to stakes were the money doesn't mean anything then it all becomes a huge waste of time as well
    • fenelonpoker
      fenelonpoker
      Global
      Joined: 24.08.2012 Posts: 15
      plus,i think that to make serious money out of playing poker you must play at least nl100,because even being break even you can still get some profit out of rakeback\vip deals. but that means to make an investment of 3k in the first place,i think ppl that claim to have climbed the stakes from 2nl for example are the exception that makes the rule
    • ExternalUseOnly
      ExternalUseOnly
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2010 Posts: 3,373
      Originally posted by fenelonpoker
      there is no logic to it because in theory any starting hand can win
      Yep and this is where our hard work and practice comes in handy. Why it is important that we learn skills like hand reading and working out ranges so we can eliminate hands from villains range and take away as much of the guess work as we can and get our money in as far ahead as possible each time.

      you will get the money in ahead,lose,try again,lose,reloadand call it variance
      What else should we call it? This is why poker is about long term results and why we tell people over and over again that 500 hands or 5k hands or 20k hands is not enough to tell us anything about their game. This is also why we preach about bankroll management and tell our beginners that if you jump into NL50 (or anystake) without a decent amount of BI's and skill then you need to be prepared to take some knocks and leading to my next point move down in stakes

      if you have to drop down to stakes were the money doesn't mean anything then it all becomes a huge waste of time as well
      If any player has this attitude then they have a huge mindset leak imo. If you are going to think this when you need to move down a stake then don't move up until you have a decent BR, use a 250 BI BRM nearly all players will have to move down as well as up at some point in their playing career.

      plus,i think that to make serious money out of playing poker you must play at least nl100,because even being break even you can still get some profit out of rakeback\vip deals. but that means to make an investment of 3k in the first place,i think ppl that claim to have climbed the stakes from 2nl for example are the exception that makes the rule
      Well firstly this depends where you live, in some countries it is possible to grind out enough to pay your bills at NL10/25 some countries you wouldn't even consider going pro unless you were crushing 200NL and had at least 6 months worth of living expenses saved just in case. But this doesnt mean that someone can just deposit 3k or 6k and say im pro now.

      Maybe one or two luckboxes have done that in the past but most professional players will have started at micro/low stakes cash/sngs and worked their way up. Thats how they are able to to hold their own once they reach these stakes.

      It is definitely possible for ANYONE to become a pro and make a living from poker but not everyone is ready to work hard enough to do it and keep improving and also of course handle the swings that will inevitably come along the way. A lot of players are happy making a good amount of money as a 2nd income from poker.

      I still fail to see how its a waste of time or there is no logic to it. although i'm happy to keep discussing it :)

      Can i ask, out of interest, are you currently playing? If so what games and stakes are you playing? How long have you played for?

      All the best
      Carl
      :)
    • fenelonpoker
      fenelonpoker
      Global
      Joined: 24.08.2012 Posts: 15
      i was playing at nl10 and climbed to nl 20 just to never hit a flop again,i've been playing for years and it is always the same-upswing then busto today i have realized that it is not worth my time to be tilting over 10 dollar pots and cashed out my last 250 dollars,i for one have a job,wich takes 48 hours of my week and i can't afford to waste my time trying to figure out a game that is ,by it's own nature,completely random. and the argument that it takes volume to win and you can't see results in 20k hands is bs,because you CAN go broke in 20k hands no matter how are you managing your bankroll.if
    • ExternalUseOnly
      ExternalUseOnly
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2010 Posts: 3,373
      Originally posted by fenelonpoker
      and the argument that it takes volume to win and you can't see results in 20k hands is bs,because you CAN go broke in 20k hands no matter how are you managing your bankroll.if
      Surely that makes my argument more valid?

      Sure you can go bust in 20k hands you can also go bust in 200 hands if you aren't using proper bankroll management. If you use a 100 BI BRM and and are playing NL2-NL25 or maybe even 50 AND are studying hard evolving your game and putting the effort in as often as you can you should never go broke sure you might have to move down limits once every so often but we move down so we don't go broke.

      However you could beat NL5 and NL10 playing standard simple ABC poker no problem but if you don't try and improve and move away from this style as you move up the limits you will be torn apart. Poker is an ever changing game and we have to change with it if we want to keep winning.

      By the sounds of things you are either super tilted right now or poker just isn't the game for you, which is fine. We all have day jobs too but this game is a hobby/passion of ours that we want to be the best we can at. We have fun playing and it's even more fun when we are winning thats why we make time for it.

      Maybe one day you will change your mind and stick at poker

      Good luck
      Carl
    • maythany
      maythany
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.10.2011 Posts: 1,189
      My advice is to to keep playing until you reached your scheduled time to call it a day. I've lost 12 SNGs in a row before I even came into the money, and these were by bad beats like AK vs AQ with a runner runner flush or KK Vs. QQ and the queens hitting a set on the flop.

      It's all about the mindset, if you have a set time limit or a number or SNGs per day then keep playing until that limit and call it a day whether you are up or down. In addition, try to stay calm because getting angry isn't going to help anyone and try to think in the long term rather than day by day.

      Hope I helped!

      MB