[5cd] straight $5/$10

    • Thorek
      Thorek
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.12.2007 Posts: 59,661
      Cows play poker with cow chips
      PokerStars Limit 5 Card Draw $5/$10 - 6 players

      SB: $210.66
      BB: $322.78
      UTG: $379.02
      UTG+1: $236.45
      CO: $80.46
      Button: $85.00 (Hero)

      Dealing Hands: ($7.00) (6 players)
      UTG raises to $10, UTG+1 raises to $15, CO raises to $20, Hero calls $20, SB calls $18, BB folds, UTG calls $10, UTG+1 calls $5

      First Draw: ($105.00) (5 players)
      SB discards 3, UTG discards 2, UTG+1 discards 1, CO discards 1, Hero stands,

      SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Hero checks

      SB showed , two pair, Aces and Eights
      UTG showed , three of a kind, Sixes
      UTG+1 mucked
      CO mucked
      Hero showed , a straight, Ace to Five
      Hero won $102
      (Rake: $3)
  • 13 replies
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      I think it would be easier to write an opinion on these hands if you didn't show the results (if you want an opinion ofc).

      I've never played higher than 3/6, but assuming 5/10 is even more aggressive, I'd cap it there with any pat hand. I also think you can then bet/fold postdraw, because (a) you haven't given away the strength of your hand by not capping and (b) in my experience, admittedly not at 5/10, you can probably get someone to call with trips.
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      Hey there guys,

      1) jb: he cannot cap pre, he can call or fold here.

      2) Postdraw it definitely worth a bluff. (LOL at ever thinking of valuebetting with the absolute worse hand you will EVER have in your range, that's just ridiculous... I know Jungleman said that balance is bad, but sometimes thinking in your own range at least a bit might not hurt even for NL players...) As I said above, given you don't plan on coldcall/pat-snowing a hand, that I definitely do not recommend, this is the absolute bottom of your range, so you have to bluff with this. If you wanna be uber-exploitative, check it back, but valuebetting?!?! It's like valuebetting 44 on an AAKK2 board, because the guy might call with 33.
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by madorjan
      Hey there guys,

      1) jb: he cannot cap pre, he can call or fold here.

      2) Postdraw it definitely worth a bluff. (LOL at ever thinking of valuebetting with the absolute worse hand you will EVER have in your range, that's just ridiculous... I know Jungleman said that balance is bad, but sometimes thinking in your own range at least a bit might not hurt even for NL players...) As I said above, given you don't plan on coldcall/pat-snowing a hand, that I definitely do not recommend, this is the absolute bottom of your range, so you have to bluff with this. If you wanna be uber-exploitative, check it back, but valuebetting?!?! It's like valuebetting 44 on an AAKK2 board, because the guy might call with 33.
      Oh dear @ 1). I'm so silly.

      Given how often I've been called by curious trips in spots like this, I still think I can get called by worse.
    • Huuurrriiicccaaannnooo
      Huuurrriiicccaaannnooo
      Basic
      Joined: 04.09.2012 Posts: 36
      Originally posted by madorjan
      ...
      2) Postdraw it definitely worth a bluff
      ...
      Mother of god... :f_eek:

      and you want them to fold flushes? full house? and maybe some quads? Well...2222-5555 are likely to fold...
    • datsmahname
      datsmahname
      Global
      Joined: 23.11.2009 Posts: 1,366
      not sure how I got here, but I love the cow chips thingy :D

      This thread makes me wonder if i know anything about 5CD. Straights seem worth betting after the first draw but given the predraw action its kind of interesting.

      Cold-calling a cap looks scary, and perhaps this is the weakest hand we would coldcall a cap with. In that sense, we may not wish to use it as a value bet it.

      If the weakest hands in our range aren't good for bluffing then what is? Unfortunately, Yelling Huricano has a point too. The "I haz a big hand, I call for 1 bet" mentality is significant.

      keep in mind, I don't play 5CD, but scary as it sounds I think I understand what Madorjan is getting at here. Edit: The problem is that he didn't state his assumption (namely, that this "is" the weakest hand we coldcall a cap with).
    • Huuurrriiicccaaannnooo
      Huuurrriiicccaaannnooo
      Basic
      Joined: 04.09.2012 Posts: 36
      This hand has ~76% chance to win a showdown!

      5 - way pot.

      76 % favourite.

      Can AA in Holdem have a 76% equity 5-way?!

      This hand has better equity than KK on K72 board!

      It's f*****g MONSTER!

      And you guys are talking about bluffing :D

      This is not the weakest hands we call here, we want to be balanced, right?

      So, next time when there is a raise/3bet/cap in front of you, just call with KJ762, JT532, T8642 etc. so you can
      b-a-l-a-n-c-e-e-e...
    • datsmahname
      datsmahname
      Global
      Joined: 23.11.2009 Posts: 1,366
      calm down now. Like i said, it only makes sense in my mind if this is the weakest hand we call the cap. Frankly, I don't know which hands or how often its appropriate to open coldcall 4 bets with in 5CD. No need to ridicule someone for taking an interest. When you do that it usually ends the conversation in any productive sense.
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by datsmahname
      calm down now. Like i said, it only makes sense in my mind if this is the weakest hand we call the cap. Frankly, I don't know which hands or how often its appropriate to open coldcall 4 bets with in 5CD. No need to ridicule someone for taking an interest. When you do that it usually ends the conversation in any productive sense.
      Oh, you get used to it. He's always a bit hysterical. Everyone's so polite around here, I like it when somebody gets all worked up. And he's usually right. I can't really see how betting A2345 here counts as a bluff either. But then madorjan is a smart guy. It's spots like this where two smart people have wildly divergent opinions that there are opportunities to learn. I hope they continue this conversation.
    • Phgrinder
      Phgrinder
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.02.2009 Posts: 1,002
      ive always wanted to learn 5CD. hope pokerstrategy comes out with vids on 5CD :D
    • Huuurrriiicccaaannnooo
      Huuurrriiicccaaannnooo
      Basic
      Joined: 04.09.2012 Posts: 36
      // sorry for English

      There are clearly some worse hands than A-5 str8 to call predraw.

      We have to put 20$ to most likely ~87$/77$(UTG folds) pot, so any hand with 1/4+ equity is worth a call.

      UTG normally open raise KK+, so UTG+1 need some good 2 pair to 3-bet with, about TTup-KKup, depends on 5th card (we need better 2 pair when holding an Ace or King) and detailed UTG range (KKA+,KK+,QQA+,QQK+,QQ+, semibluffs?) but it's not uncommon to see a player 3-bet with 3322+ in HJvsUTG or UTG to open raise with some TT/JJ

      In that case CO should cap sth around AAup/KKup, but most likely it will be trips or better.
      That's just approximate because each player in 5cd has his own world.
      One is 3-betting AA vs UTG, while other is folding...

      Simulated 100000 Five Card Draw Hands (Monte Carlo)
      Simulation by Slice - The ev++ Equity Calculator
      code:
      
       Player   Equity   Win Hi   Tie Hi                                                      Range                                                         
          
         1       8.0      8.0      0.0                *****{qu},*****{pt},*****{fs},AKQJT-65432,A5432,*****{tr},*****{tp},AA***{op},KK***{op}           
         2       19.4     19.4     0.0      *****{qu},*****{pt},*****{fs},AKQJT-65432,A5432,*****{tr},AA***{tp},KK***{tp},QQ***{tp},JJ***{tp},TT***{tp} 
         3       46.9     46.9     0.0                               *****{qu},*****{pt},*****{fs},AKQJT-65432,A5432,*****{tr}                          
         4       25.7     25.7     0.0                                                       888**{tr}                                                
      


      This calculation are not as exact as Holdem, but also not far from the true.
      With ranges like above 888 represents a marginal calling hand.
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Now back to A2345. What about postdraw valuebet?

      Chance that one of them have improved:

      [1-(0.988*0.913*0.917^2)] * 100% = ~24%

      There is a 24% chance that you lose to a bigger hand, so to make a value bet you have to get called by worse with at least 1/4 frequency.

      Is it possible? ¯\(°_o)/¯
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      @Huricano: you're right, given that we coldcall here and pat with stuff worse than A2345, then we don't have to bluff with this hand. (Interesting what hands should we coldcall here to pat as a bluff, probably ones we can break if someone is pat before us.) However, betting with the absolute bottom of your range will make the overall value for your range higher, so no matter what your range is, you always should bet the bottom of it.

      However when dats says we won't have worse hands, he means coldcall/patting range, if you have trips here, you definitely draw 1 IMO, therefore postdraw they're not in your range.

      And also, sorry for suggesting balance in a game that is a) Limit structured, b) Draw game, c) 2-street game. I cannot find a game where balance should be more important than in this game. (Maybe KCL is close, but it's NL.)
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      As we discussed, starting from a balanced strategy and adjusting is probably the right way to play any variant of poker, if you know what a balanced strategy looks like. It's just a question of degree. 5CD you probably don't want to stray toooo far from balanced, NLHE, which you love soooo much, is a different story. :D
    • Phgrinder
      Phgrinder
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.02.2009 Posts: 1,002
      more 5CD content from pokerstrategy please. videos and everything else :D