Sick hand

    • Krisstef
      Krisstef
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.10.2011 Posts: 23
      Had some free time, thought i'd share a hand with you guys.

      NL 25- 500bb deep

      Hero- 97euro ( KK )
      Villain- 115euro ( LAG stats)

      Villain raised from UTG to 3bb , and I made a 3bet to about 10bb from the BU, He 4bet me to around 35 and i decided to flat ( we were 500bb deep after all :D ) The flop came TJQ rainbow. I bet a little over half the pot and he called. The turn came a 9, giving me a straight. He shoved. Thought about it for a 10-15 secs and i folded the kings face up. The guy was shocked by my fold and admitted he had AK.

      Its not the move he made that scared me nor the money, it just felt like he had AK after he called the flop. Sick fold or not, is you to decide.
      Btw, i was thinking of naming the topic 'sick fold' but decided not to give away the end.
      Cheers, and good luck!
      Regards,

      Chris
  • 10 replies
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Preflop, deciding to flat for 35, creates a 70 pot on flop and you then have only 62 left so pot committed anyway. You really should have 5bet shove instead. If he did in fact have AK, he's probably calling and sucking out, but oh well, at least you got your money in good.

      Then, wtf are you doing on the flop??? The pot is 70, you bet ~40, leaving yourself with ~22 left on turn and a pot of 150???? The pot is so big anyway that really you should be either shoving if you think your hand is best and check/folding if you believe it is not. Essentially your bet is a shove.

      I don't even understand how you can fold the turn. If the 4bet is 35, the flop is 70 pot, then you bet a little over half pot, then there should be 150 or so in the pot. He then shoves, making it effectively 22 to call at 172 or so.

      No offense, but I think you made so many mistakes here, I guess if you believe him that he had AK, then good job saving yourself $22, but there's still 7% chance split pot vs AK exclusive range, and then add in the chance your hand may be good anyway, and 8:1 pot odds? Crap fold IMO, sorry.

      EDIT: I don't mean this to come across as rude. Hopefully all comments are taken as constructive criticism.
    • Krisstef
      Krisstef
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.10.2011 Posts: 23
      Thanks for the great reply bro.

      Ah just one thing- 500bb deep....
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Effective stacks are actually only 400bb deep but I get the point. I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not but I do think its an interesting hand and am keen to discuss it with you. I am still learning at poker, so by no means do I consider anything I'm saying to be objectively correct. Btw, the hand reminds me a little of this hand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXBUpeV8UqE, huge hands, wired flop and tough decisions.

      I haven't ever played 500bb deep except in tournaments, but I would think that regardless of how deep stacked you are, it is not standard to put in 4/5 of your stack and then fold. But then again, that could be what makes it a sick fold. I guess you're still left with ~90bb which is by no means insignificant, but at the same time you've lost 400bb. But generally don't the same rules apply postflop, its more about the pot size and relative stack size than how deep you are? I know 90bb is still a lot, but there's a 680bb pot there, and AK is the only hand that has you beat.

      Does the concept of pot committal not apply when you are over a certain amount of bb deep? I would think that it applies no matter how deep you are, but I am open to the fact that I might be wrong, I don't know for sure.

      Let's just say that he did have AK. There are so many reasons not to fold, that I guess by that you can say it is a really sick fold, he did have the better hand, so in that respect well done! :f_biggrin:

      The only dilemma though, is that supposedly as poker players we are not supposed to be results orientated and knowing that he had AK makes this results orientated. Although I am not sure if I fully agree with always being results orientated. I think sometimes you can be. It is quite a weird thing, to make the wrong decision in one isolated event because it is the right decision in the long run. Because I feel like here you got one of those "gut feelings" he had AK where you're just 100% sure villain has x hand, and you're right and you make the correct move for that isolated event even though its wrong overall, I know exactly what that's like, its a rare thing but it happens, and then is it ok to be results orientated? Who can say? :f_biggrin:

      I guess the main question I have with this hand is the flop bet, it seems like it has no particular purpose. Are you expecting him to call this bet with worse hands than yours? And if you are, then surely you can't fold turn. It's a ~160bb bet too, shouldn't be made lightly. What was the reasoning behind making this bet? I think because the pot is 280bb at this stage and you've got ~250bb left, you really should to make the decision then and there if your hand is worth going all the way with. Not saying its an easy decision, because it isn't, but the flop is the time to make it IMO.
    • Tampaloeres81
      Tampaloeres81
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.03.2009 Posts: 1,416
      Metza,

      You've messed up BB vs euro ;)

      T.
    • Lefty85
      Lefty85
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2008 Posts: 151
      Not sure why you would ever want to put money in the pot on the worst possible flop, you beat absolutely nothing.

      Assuming your are on the button, why wouldn't you just check behind the flop?
    • ItsTeddyKGB
      ItsTeddyKGB
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.01.2011 Posts: 734
      [] sick hand
      [x] dumb play
    • Krisstef
      Krisstef
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.10.2011 Posts: 23
      Very productive opinions Teddy ;D

      Mezza- I actually saved myself about 3/4 of my stack by folding there. On the turn the flop was around 35-40 euro and we both had 75+ left.

      Lefty- It is a very bad flop, although I wasn't playing versus an ABC player, and given we were both deep he can be a lot more creative with his 4bet. I bet on the flop to see where I was at and possibly get some thin value from a draw.

      Cheers
    • meymoon1
      meymoon1
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2012 Posts: 2
      I think 4 bet was 35bb not €35. So pot is €17,50 on flop. Let's say flop bet was €10, makes it 37,50 on turn. Villan shoves cca €100 or 400bb.

      I would 5 bet to 100bb's, If he's decent, easy fold to 6 bet/shove.
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Ok, yeah I misread the euro/bb difference, sorry.

      If he's shoving for about 3x pot, you have to ask yourself how often he is capable of doing this as a bluff (or turning a set into a semi bluff)

      If we assume his 4bet range is something like TT+, AK, AQs then we are only 25% on the flop and thus should check fold. Definitely not bet into a flop we're very likely behind on.

      If we say he's only shoving turn with AK, TT-KK, then we're only 37% to win 10% to chop, thus standard fold, wp.

      If you have reads that he may be 4betting lighter than this it changes things postflop, but also means you should be 5betting pre with KK for sure.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by Krisstef
      Thanks for the great reply bro.

      Ah just one thing- 500bb deep....
      Actually your only 388bb deep. Why would you bet that flop ip? Thats just dumb since you beat 0% of his value range. TT+ and AK all have you beat. Is your flop bet a bluff or a value bet because there sure isn't any value. Putting a single cent into the pot on that board is just burning money.

      Turn is not a sick fold, its actually a super easy fold. Your only beating a split in case he has KK, but thats not enough to compensate for everytime he has AK since combowise his 8 times more likely to have the nuts then a chop.

      His never ever bluffing since your range for flatting 4bets is so often AK(or TT-KK) and combo wise you have AK more then half the time and you might not fold a set or KK so bluffing is just the dumbest thing he can do. Apart from doing it for value. He could definitly get more out of you by c/c and then leading the river small if the turn goes c/c or just c/c down and hope you try to represent AK himself and jam the river as a bluff.

      All in all you both pretty much butchered the hand. You played horrible on the flop and for some reason didn't snap fold the turn, he played the turn horrible since his never getting called by worse which means he lost a ton of value in a massive pot.