[NL20-NL50] NL20 SH KK vs cold 4bet

    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.20(BB) Replayer
      SB ($19.20)
      BB ($27.19)
      UTG ($7.30)
      UTG+1 ($57.16)
      CO ($32.97)
      Hero ($20.20)

      Dealt to Hero K:diamond: K:spade:

      fold, fold, CO raises to $0.60, Hero raises to $2.40, fold, BB raises to $5.20, fold, Hero calls $2.80

      FLOP ($11.10) 7:spade: Q:diamond: T:spade:

      BB checks, Hero checks

      TURN ($11.10) 7:spade: Q:diamond: T:spade: Q:spade:

      BB checks, Hero checks

      RIVER ($11.10) 7:spade: Q:diamond: T:spade: Q:spade: 5:club:

      BB checks, Hero checks

      CO: 18/15/2.2, fold to 3bet 70, 1.5K hands

      BB:


      notes:
      cold 4bet w KK, c/c 9xxss, c/c T
      call in BB w 56s, station on flop - call cbet T9x, chekc 2, check 5
      call 3bet OOP, check 966, donk Q
      call cold 4bet OOP w QQ, check Jxx mono, check 9, c/c A 1/4
      minrasei cbet IP A76, fold to 3bet
      call small overbet in unraised 3way K42ss OOP, c/minrase Q, fold to 3bet - bluffer


      I was having loose 3beting image because CO folds to 3bets, especially he cannot play them OOP. So I think it is posible that BB fed up and can start cold 4bet bluff. But I have no note that he can cold 4bet bluff. But I thought its too weak to fold. And I don't reraise because I don't think also that worse will pay me. He probably does not have QQ there. Its AA or bluff most likely.

      On flop I don't bet because I don't think I can get many calls. If he has bluff, he could have a draw, but then if I bet, I have to go allin with over pair. But he also proabbly understandst that I don't have weak range here - if he has draw, and I bet, he will most likely put me on KK+. Maybe QQ+, so will not want to stack off with draw.
      Maybe he could have AQ in his bluffs range and it might be tough for him to lay donw, but I could get value from one street from AQ. I don't want to risk on flop to be raised. I have no real idea what his range could be.

      On turn again I will not get calls from worse, so I check.

      On river - I have oportuintu to see his range, so I don't bet even for thin value. Maybe only Tx could call if I bet small and if he has it in bluffing range, but his cards are more valuable info.
  • 5 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello SPeedFANat1c,

      Yeah well, but what do you plan to do if he CBs on a blank flop? Do you still plan to go broke or what's the idea behind it?

      Best Regards.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      Originally posted by veriz
      Hello SPeedFANat1c,

      Yeah well, but what do you plan to do if he CBs on a blank flop? Do you still plan to go broke or what's the idea behind it?

      Best Regards.
      I think folding would be bad. Even if I am against aces, I would have been against aces anyway if I would have shipped preflop. On flop there is sligth chance that he will try to bluff or on such flop maybe he will have AQ, KQ and cbet it. Or cbet with a draw. I guess I have to raise vs cbet because if I call, I commit myself (did not do the mathc, but I guess I am commited).

      BUt if there is Axx board, then folding should be ok, becuase there might be Aces in his bluffing range, so I save some money.


      Edit:
      but there are also considerations about folding on any flop. With hand like AQ on Qxx - he could just check because he thinks that he will not get calls from worse. So then the only option is to try to go to the cheap showdown. And hope to hit a king on some street.
      With a draw - he also might think that there is no fold equity, because my calling range in his eyes is KK+. But I don't know what exactly is he thinking in this spot, so hard to tell what to do. This spot is not standard for me.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      So practically you have no idea what you going to do. :D At the same time you expect him to bluff with air but you don't expect him to Bet with value-hands, rather I'd say that he ain't going to bluff that often into you and the dry board doesn't change much.

      Instead I'd just get it in preflop whilst I doubt you would get away postflop anyways and just calling and playing for set-mining ain't working out. Though the guy may have still something like AK or whatsoever which he really wants to play for the stacks. Don't really see him bluffing into $12 pot whereby he has to invest almost all his stack.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      So practically you have no idea what you going to do. At the same time you expect him to bluff with air but you don't expect him to Bet with value-hands, rather I'd say that he ain't going to bluff that often into you and the dry board doesn't change much.


      Thats why I am here :) It would be easier to know what to do if I would know what he does with made hands, what he does with air, but I have no reads and no experience in such spots.

      So yeah, if he gets in preflop with AK, then ok to ship, but somehow I doubt. He is agaist KK+ if he gets in and he has 20% equity.

      Of course he creates lot of fold equity preflop.

      5.2 / 5.2+ 3 = 0.63

      He needs 63% of folds. If I have 10% range there and I continue with 0.9% then his FE is around 90%

      If he gets in, he needs aroud 15/40 = 37% equty.

      Later I don't know how to calculate his total EV.

      Ok, lets say with 100 bb stack we go allin. But with 125 bb what we do? Or what is the efective stack size, so we cannot get in in this spot enymore preflop?

      Edit:
      Just thought came - if I push and see that he folds few times, then I also can have note, and next time 5bet bluff with Axs or PP maybe.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Well, being a bit deeper we are more inclined to Call and just play postflop. Though being rather just 100bb and wouldn't say we have a huge sample I'd just get it in as long I am also planning to get it in any flop whilst I don't expect him to bluff there anyways.

      Of course could also take a note that he is capable of 4betting light but that again depends what's his overall 4bet etc. :) Based on that we make assumptions how loose we can ship.