[NL20-NL50] NL20 SH A9s

    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,150
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.20(BB) Replayer
      SB ($23.41)
      BB ($39.73)
      UTG ($27.35)
      Hero ($33.29)
      CO ($27.59)
      BTN ($20)

      Dealt to Hero A:heart: 9:heart:

      UTG raises to $0.40, Hero raises to $1.60, fold, fold, SB calls $1.50, fold, fold

      FLOP ($3.80) J:heart: K:spade: 6:spade:

      SB checks, Hero checks

      TURN ($3.80) J:heart: K:spade: 6:spade: K:heart:

      SB bets $2.10, Hero raises to $5.30, SB calls $3.20

      RIVER ($14.40) J:heart: K:spade: 6:spade: K:heart: 4:heart:

      SB checks, Hero bets $10, SB calls $10

      UTG: 42/23/4.4, 138 hands fish

      SB:


      I don't know what could he cold call with preflop, but I don't cbet because it might hit Kxx flop.

      On turn I think if he does not have strong hand, lot of Kx are blocked, he might bluff me or value bet with weaker hand I don't know, so I try to bluff with nut flush draw. Of course my bluff does not represent strong hand also, only a draw, but at least he can fold his bluff. If I call and he has bluff or weak hand, I don't have much implied odds.
      But in case he has AK, he should raise the turn and I would have to fold. But I don't believe that he would cold call with AK preflop OOP, but who knows.

      On the river I was targeting Kx hand like KQ, (in game I didn't think that he cold called 3bet so I put him on KQ as part of his range).
      But its guessing game now - if he can have Kx, then my bet is ok, but if he cannot, then I can only target underpairs and slowplayed AA. Hmm, AA could pay 10$ on river, but QQ cannont. TT if there is - probably should fold on turn. There could also be JJ in his range, which he could play this way on turn, but on river he checks - and he should not want that - he wants to get value from my Kx if he has JJ, so JJ is not likely I guess.
  • 16 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello SPeedFANat1c,

      Rather CB the flop than raise the turn, don't really understand your play at all. I mean what are you trying to represent with the raise on the turn which didn't Bet the flop?

      Best Regards.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Cbetting flop > raising this turn, However, is checking the flop and just folding this turn not the best play in this case?
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,150
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Cbetting flop > raising this turn, However, is checking the flop and just folding this turn not the best play in this case?
      I think checking flop and calling turn should be ok. Because when he cold called preflop, he might be on a stronger range and lot of Kx. So not that much FE.

      We need on turn 8.4-(2.1+3.8) = 2.5 $ implied odds. If he has Kx, then we definitely have it. If he does not, and has J, then he could probably call that amount. The questyion is only how much do we bet on river - what is our target. Proabaly Kx so bet big. He can as well blockbet on the river with his Jx.
    • yougotfelted51
      yougotfelted51
      Silver
      Joined: 04.02.2010 Posts: 1,276
      why not jam river? in my experience any hand villain calls a $10 bet with would most likely call a jam.

      you can have so many missed draws since you almost never have Kx/a big hand in this spot as you didnt cbet flop on a coordinated/wet board
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,150
      why not jam river?


      jam might look more for value and flush is posible so he might lay down even Kx I thought.
    • yougotfelted51
      yougotfelted51
      Silver
      Joined: 04.02.2010 Posts: 1,276
      i think fish in general decide between folding and calling, regardless of the price.

      also, the turn raise size looks like a bluff raise here often since we dont allow for less than a pot size bet on the river. so imo overbet jamming here looks more bluffy than $10

      btw: do you play on titan?
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,150
      i think fish in general decide between folding and calling, regardless of the price.


      he is reg. Vs fish I agree.

      No, I don't play on titan.
    • yougotfelted51
      yougotfelted51
      Silver
      Joined: 04.02.2010 Posts: 1,276
      sorry i confused utg and sb, my mistake.
      i think regs call frequently in that spot with Kx and even good jacks vs what looks like a bluffy hero line and missed spades/straight draws, but maybe i have to small of a sample size
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Cbetting flop > raising this turn, However, is checking the flop and just folding this turn not the best play in this case?
      If we Check the flop then most likely with improving our hand we wont be able to Call the turn cause we just don't have the implied odds, therefore also the CB for fold equity whilst also being IP + having some backdoor equity.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Do we have a lot of fold equity on this flop vs his range? The flop seems to have hit it pretty hard and our backdoors are not that strong.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,150
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Do we have a lot of fold equity on this flop vs his range? The flop seems to have hit it pretty hard and our backdoors are not that strong.
      yeah, for me also this is interesting
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Do we have a lot of fold equity on this flop vs his range? The flop seems to have hit it pretty hard and our backdoors are not that strong.
      Even if we don't we at least secure us a free card for the turn. Cause if you Check you ain't able to Call the river as said cause you don't have the implied odds then.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      But if we don't have enough fold equity on the flop, is the free river card really that big a factor in favour of cBetting in the first place?

      Why not check the flop + fold even the turn vs this sized bet with our FD since we don't get the implied odds for the call anyway?

      Why bet with such little equity on the flop where the aces are possibly not clean outs very often + we hit our FD only ~20% of all times on the turn and even then we only get ~18% to hit our flush on the river. Of course there are the backdoor straight draws with the Q and the T as well but the frequency with which we hit them + complete them pretty much is as bad as it is with the FD + it is a 1crd backdoor draw and thus we are not really getting paid all that often.

      Too often will we just bet the turn in order to check back on the turn and give up on the river with this line.

      My thoughts are to be judged in the context of me assuming that our opponent's preflop range is quite tight, more often than not consisting of JJ–QQ, and sometimes AK. Would like to know if that is a reasonable assumption :f_confused:

      Because betting 1 street vs his JJ–QQ type of hands on this board is sort of suicidal. Could consider double barreling often though, assuming that he continues only with AK or a set on the turn (would be difficult for him to call with 2nd pair twice on this board texture afterall).
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      But if we don't have enough fold equity on the flop, is the free river card really that big a factor in favour of cBetting in the first place?

      Because we have fold equity? Because we have backdoor equity? Because we can't Call the turn if he bets and we improve for FD. :P + WE HAVE DAAAA POSITION! How much more you want? :f_biggrin:

      Why not check the flop + fold even the turn vs this sized bet with our FD since we don't get the implied odds for the call anyway?

      Do you think this play ever can be wrong? :) But you never do that as proves Hero's play.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,150
      Because we have fold equity?


      I think to discuss this - we need to have an idea what range you are putting him on after he coldcalls 3bet preflop OOP :)

      We don't have such situations that often so maybe we are putting him on too tight range, so thats why we don't believe about having enough fold equity :)
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c
      Because we have fold equity?


      I think to discuss this - we need to have an idea what range you are putting him on after he coldcalls 3bet preflop OOP :)

      We don't have such situations that often so maybe we are putting him on too tight range, so thats why we don't believe about having enough fold equity :)
      That shouldn't be that difficult cause actually it's not really a 3bet cause we face first a min-raise. Plus if we take into account his fold to 3bet stat which is rather loose we can assume his calling range isn't super-nitty there and may include a lot of PPs (which clearly fold to CB very often here). Taken into account that he also knows UTG is a fish then might be most likely even wider and towards to even SCs? :P

      Clearly even just assuming his range is mainly PPs we can easily CB here whilst having decent amount of fold equity + backdoor equity. Your line is just one of the worst to take. :(