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[NL20-NL50] nl20 A Common Trouble Spot on the Turn

    • Ghartman
      Ghartman
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.10.2011 Posts: 273
      IPoker, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      BB: $13.66 (68.3 bb)
      UTG: $13.11 (65.6 bb)
      MP: $21.62 (108.1 bb)
      Hero (CO): $21.48 (107.4 bb)
      BTN: $36.45 (182.3 bb)
      SB: $20.30 (101.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is CO with 6 6
      UTG folds, MP raises to $0.40, Hero calls $0.40, BTN calls $0.40, SB calls $0.30, BB calls $0.20

      Flop: ($2) 8 6 T (5 players)
      SB checks, BB bets $1.50, MP folds, Hero raises to $3.25, 2 folds, BB calls $1.75

      Turn: ($8.50) 3 (2 players)
      BB checks, Hero checks

      Obviously I check it back here to:
      1) Pot Control
      2) Get my free card to try and house up on the river in case I'm behind (maybe this is pot control too?)

      River: ($8.50) 3 (2 players)
      BB bets $6.37, Hero raises to $17.83, BB calls $3.64 and is all-in


      So my question relates to the turn. Just because the :club: comes doesn't automatically mean that he's hit a flush and, if he's got a hand like A :club: 10 :spade: or J :club: J :heart: we're giving him a free shot at hitting his club on the river. As such, should my line be bet/fold on this turn or would I be turning my relatively strong hand into a bluff? I face this spot so often and I always hate myself if a 4-flush comes in on the river and I have to fold. This is Speed Poker so no reads, my HUD does not work here. So, in a readless situation what would be the default line here in general? Let me know what you think.

      Thanks
  • 5 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Ghartman,

      What's the reason for min-raising the flop? Against his stack just Bet the turn and ship it. :)

      Best Regards.
    • Ghartman
      Ghartman
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.10.2011 Posts: 273
      Originally posted by veriz
      Hello Ghartman,

      What's the reason for min-raising the flop? Against his stack just Bet the turn and ship it. :)

      Best Regards.
      Ok, thanks. Yes I probably played the flop a little badly. I kind of used this hand to illustrate a common trouble spot more than post it to be evaluated though, to be honest. Say for example that:

      1) Me and Villain are both 100bb deep
      2) Both hero and villain are 200bb's+ deep
      3) I am out of position facing aggression

      How does the dynamic change? In general, when the turn completes/adds potential equity to villains perceived range, what is the default line in the 3 scenarios above, readless. Am I betting to protect my increasingly vulnerable holding, folding or shoving? When you can, let me know what you think the default line is in general. As I said, I find myself in this particular spot a lot in a readless situation and it can be costly.

      Thanks
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Flop raise size doesn't affect anything I'd say. I mean what dynamics? :) You want to protect your hand and plan practically to get the moneyz in on the turn vs his stack. If you raise this small = giving very good odds for his draws.
    • Ghartman
      Ghartman
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.10.2011 Posts: 273
      • 10.10.2012, 11:30
      • This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Ghartman: 10.10.2012 11:31.
      Originally posted by veriz
      Flop raise size doesn't affect anything I'd say. I mean what dynamics? :) You want to protect your hand and plan practically to get the moneyz in on the turn vs his stack. If you raise this small = giving very good odds for his draws.
      The dynamics of the 3 different scenarios I listed in my last post.... As I explained, I'm using this hand as an example of a tough turn spot that I come up against on a regular basis. Not because of my small flop raise, I would usually raise bigger, I guess I wanted MP to come along too in this particular hand and build an even bigger pot but that was probably a mistake. That's not what I'm talking about though.

      If, for example, villain is full stacked and I raised to $5-6 on the flop, he calls and the draw-completing card comes in on the flop (flush or straightening card) are we still planning on getting stacks in on the turn still? That is my question. You seem to be concentrating mainly on this specific hand that I posted but, as I said before, I'm just using this hand to illustrate the turn play in a readless situation.

      So let's say:

      BB: $23.66 (118.3 bb)
      UTG: $13.11 (65.6 bb)
      MP: $21.62 (108.1 bb)
      Hero (CO): $21.48 (107.4 bb)
      BTN: $36.45 (182.3 bb)
      SB: $20.30 (101.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is CO with 6 :heart: 6 :spade:
      UTG folds, MP raises to $0.40, Hero calls $0.40, BTN calls $0.40, SB calls $0.30, BB calls $0.20

      Flop: ($2) 8 :club: 6 :club: T :spade: (5 players)
      SB checks, BB bets $1.50, MP folds, Hero raises to $5.25, 2 folds, BB calls $3.75

      Turn: ($12.50) 3 :club: (2 players)
      BB bets $6.50, Hero??????




      Sorry if my question is confusing.

      Thanks
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      It's way different hand and played differently, so we have to consider it taking totally differently. BB doesn't even anymore have the same stack. :) So how can you equal those both hands? One hand you play one way, other one you play way differently as you get donked.

      Depends again on the opponent we are against, if he is rather passive then just Call and take the implied odds for FH/Quads.