uNLSH - active blind defense small PP's

    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,207
      I read the following article not so long back:

      Blind defense

      it advised playing small PP's 22-66 as a preflop semi bluff in certain situations where we don't believe we have the correct implied odds to call for set value. I have tried using this strategy playing NL4SH. However, I am considering abandoning this strategy for NL4SH for the following reasons:

      1) Opp's are bad enough to stack off postflop most of the time when we flop our sets
      2) Preflop calling ranges at uNLSH are likely to be tighter. Take the following example

      Hero is BB w/ 4 :heart: 4 :club:
      Villain is 20/15/3/5/20/200 hands
      folds to BU, BU Raises 4bb, SB folds, Hero raises to 12bb, BU calls 8bb

      Flop: A :heart: K :diamond: 2 :club:
      Hero?.....

      Now in this example I would say that villain's range is probably going to look something like:

      JJ-TT,AJs+,KQs,QJs,AQo+,KQo,JTo

      I think such a range is reasonable and maybe a bit optimistic but I think it illustrates the point well enough.

      So our equity on this board is now as follows:

      Board: A:heart: K:diamond: 2:club:
             Equity     Win     Tie
      BU     86.20%  86.20%   0.00% { JJ-TT, AJs+, KQs, QJs, AQo+, KQo }
      BB     13.80%  13.80%   0.00% { 4h4c }


      In a normal raised pot where we are IP with the PFA then this would be an ideal spot for a cbet as a bluff. We can rep AX well and we get a lot of better hands to fold.

      However, when we are OOP and up against a much stronger and narrower range it is way worse a predicament. What worse hands call a bet? If none do, how can we bet for value? If we want to bluff then we must be able to get better hands to fold. But again what better hands fold here? TT/JJ and KQ?

      Therefore we don't really have a great deal of FE* postflop.


      3) With all the above being said, maybe I'm just not applying it in the correct situations. Maybe it is better off used in situations where, for example. We have a villain who is Loose and rarely fold to 3b's but plays fit/fold postflop. lets take the same example with a looser preflop calling range:

      Hero is BB w/ 4 :heart: 4 :club:
      Villain is 30/25/3/6/25/200 hands - ATS 25%+ fto3bpf = 50% FCB = 75%
      folds to BU, BU Raises 4bb, SB folds, Hero raises to 12bb, BU calls 8bb

      Flop: A :heart: K :diamond: 2 :club:

      Lets say villain calls a much wider range preflop in this instance, something like:

      JJ-77,AQs-AJs,KJs+,QJs,JTs,AJo+,KJo+,QJo

      Now I would say his range is much weaker and he much more likely to fold postflop.


      What do you guys think. Do you ever use this strategy on these stakes? If you do or you don't I 'd appreciate some comments explaining why. Any comments on my thoughts here would be greatly appreciated.

      Cheers

      :f_grin: :f_grin: :f_grin:
  • 10 replies
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,910
      My first impression is that your button open raising range if v tight.

      Using the Equilab SH ORC - Tight
      BU open raise range would be more like:
      22+, A2s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J7s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, A9o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J8o+, T8o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o
      or 36%

      The range you gave,
      JJ-TT,AJs+,KQs,QJs,AQo+,KQo,JTo
      is 6%
      changing it to TT+ still makes it 7.4%, which I think is way too tight for a button in 6max

      Even the "much wider range" you gave in the 2nd part seems waaayyy too tight compared to the buttons I encounter at NL 10 6Max

      Using the range I gave, your 4s fare much better:

      Board: A:heart: K:diamond: 2C
             Equity     Win     Tie
      BU     56.70%  56.56%   0.14% { 22+, A2s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J7s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, A9o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J8o+, T8o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
      BB     43.30%  43.17%   0.14% { 44 }



      I have raised small PP from the BB only in blind-vs-blind.
      I'm just getting into short-handed though.

      Also, what I hold is not nearly so important as who I'm up against.
      The button's stack size and steal attempt rate would be things I'd look at really strongly before 3Betting 4s.

      If I did 3Bet 4s and get called, I'd be prepared to CBet that flop.
    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,207
      Thanks VorpalF2F

      The ranges I have outlined there are 3b calling ranges rather than openraising ranges. Would this change anything for you?

      The problem I'm having after 3b'ing is I seem to c-bet once and give up un-improved OOP or just x/f a lot.

      Cheers
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,910
      Originally posted by muel294
      Thanks VorpalF2F

      The ranges I have outlined there are 3b calling ranges rather than openraising ranges. Would this change anything for you?

      The problem I'm having after 3b'ing is I seem to c-bet once and give up un-improved OOP or just x/f a lot.

      Cheers
      Doh!
      Sry -- I missed that.
      Makes a lot more sense now.

      This is too opponent - dependant to be making blanket statements.
      w/o notes, stats or other observation data, I am very cagey about what I 3Bet

      If you 3Bet a button raise pre, you can expect pressure from BU on flops containing T-high flops and stronger.

      If you get that pressure, now you are OOP post flop in a 3Bet pot with a mediocre pair and only 2 real outs -- if that.

      x/f seems pretty good play in that case.

      I think the idea of 3Betting PP is you're hoping for a fold.
      If you don't get it, you are then hoping for a really cheap showdown -- or at least a cheap turn card.

      Although it is true that "you can't win if you fold", it is also true that "you can lose a hell of a lot more if you're not careful".

      Oh, yeah, and "they can't fold if you merely call".
      On that ugly flop, try a x/r if you think the BU is being overly aggro.

      But if you do, by now you are severely into scary town.
      There be dragons there!
    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,207
      Thanks VorpalF2F

      I totally agree with the above. I might not be brave enough to be x/rai bluffing in 3b pots yet, but I think for the time being I might just exclusively set mine 22-66 OOP unless I am super sure I can take it down pre and postflop very often.

      I have been trying this recently and people are stacking off against sets so lightly that I feel it's not worth the hassle unless I think I am up against regs or thinking opp's who are stealing lots. Here's an example, feel free to analyse the hand as well please.

      PartyGaming - $0.04 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      BTN: $4.87 unknown
      Hero (SB): $4.00
      BB: $4.20
      UTG: $3.96
      CO: $2.90

      Hero posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.04

      Pre Flop: (pot: $0.06) Hero has 9:club: 9:spade:

      fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.16, Hero calls $0.14, fold

      Flop: ($0.36, 2 players) A:heart: 9:diamond: T:club:
      Hero checks, BTN bets $0.35, Hero calls $0.35

      Turn: ($1.06, 2 players) 7:diamond:
      Hero checks, BTN bets $0.75, Hero raises to $2.26, BTN calls $1.51

      River: ($5.58, 2 players) Q:heart:
      Hero bets $1.23 and is all-in, BTN calls $1.23

      Hero shows 9:club: 9:spade: (Three of a Kind, Nines) (Pre 55%, Flop 86%, Turn 91%)
      BTN shows K:heart: Q:spade: (One Pair, Queens) (Pre 45%, Flop 14%, Turn 9%)
      Hero wins $7.64


      Incidentally, what (in your opinion) are good textures for c-betting when we have 3b a small PP OOP. I have just been assuming the same boards as for normal raised pots where we are the PFA'r, but recently I have been thinking about their preflop calling ranges in 3b pots being mostly weighted towards AT+/KQ+ and 99-QQ or something. So on A-hi/K-hi boards it tends to smash their range.

      thanks
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      As you have outlined yourself very well small PP don't play well post flop, especially in a 3B pot. So that's not something we are looking for.

      For that reason 3B PP from the blinds vs a stealer is only good if the stealer is folding too much to resteal or doesn't have much of a calling range and play mostly 4B or fold in which case we can shove over his 4B.

      I have done the maths that show how wide the stealer needs to be 4Betting for this to be profitable and you can do it yourself, that's a good exercise.

      I doubt this will be the case at NL4 though. So imo just fold them preflop is the stealer is calling your resteal too often.

      Hope that helps
    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,207
      So imo just fold them preflop is the stealer is calling your resteal too often


      Fold them pre? Can we not just still set mine given call20 rule? I think villains are still bad enough to stack off postflop most of the time?

      By the way a knowledgable poker friend of mine has suggested the same so I just want to see what the reasoning is out of curiosity.

      Cheers
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      This is an interesting post OP.

      The reason why typically you might not want to set-mine from the blinds vs a late-position open is your reduced implied odds. BU/CO opens will be very wide, when you do flop your set, you are not necessarily getting paid often enough.

      Pairs have equity though, so we don't necessarily want to fold them. As the top of our range too weak to call we can use them to bluff. Not everyone conforms to this strategy - one main reason is your post-flop playability. Unless you flop a set, you are going to have very few barrelling opportunities with a likely 3 overcards on the board and only very small chance of hitting a decent draw.

      As you point out in your OP, villains call-3bet range is going to be strong and have you in bad shape on a lot of boards. The solution? Give up when called. Don't cbet or barrel. If you are choosing good opponents to 3bet bluff (high ATS, high Ft3bet) you should be generating an auto-profit without ever cbetting. The times you do flop a set, you are going to get paid a lot because opponent is probably strong.

      Now, you raise another interesting point. Surely micro-limit players are super bad and you are going to have good implieds against them anyway. You are correct. If you suspect someone is bad and they have a full stack, go ahead and set-mine out of position. You still have implieds because when they flop top-pair with their J7o they are stacking off.

      The key is that a decent regular is probably not paying you off often enough, when he has a weak-range, position, and better hand-reading ability. So against these opponents 3bet (if they have a high enough Ft3bet) or just plain fold your 22-66 SB vs BU etc. But against fish, you can set-mine all day.
    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,207
      Thanks to everyone who has replied here by the way. Really appreciate it.

      Although @ w34z3l

      Your post has cleared things up particularly for me. One more thing though:


      Given what you have said above regarding regs. In instances where we are defending a BU stl from a good reg who is not folding to 3b's super often is this a really good arguement for just folding them preflop since:

      1) We hardly stack off postflop / extract value
      2) We just get owned when villain is IP and we are OOP - i.e we can't barrell / bluff postflop very well

      Cheers
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      You are correct in your last post muel294

      Obviously vs a fish that will stack off with JT on T83 go ahead and set mine.

      And +1 to what said w34z3l
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      Originally posted by muel294
      In instances where we are defending a BU stl from a good reg who is not folding to 3b's super often is this a really good arguement for just folding them preflop since:

      1) We hardly stack off postflop / extract value
      2) We just get owned when villain is IP and we are OOP - i.e we can't barrell / bluff postflop very well

      In general the better regs at micro-stakes are folding too much to 3bets rather than calling too much. Sometimes they fold 80% or more.

      If button opens to 3bb and you 3bet to 9bb from the SB and BB folds, you are investing 8.5bb to win 4.5bb. This means your 3bet bluff needs to work 65% of the time to break even. If they are folding more than this, you generate automatic profit by 3bet bluffing, even if you never cbet. When you do get called you are probably up against a strong range and have great implieds if you hit your set.

      If that regular instead is only folding 40% of the time to your 3bet you no longer generate auto-profit. You are forced to play the hand out of position on a board where you usually have very little equity. You are correct, this a great argument for just folding preflop. You can't profitably set-mine, and you are going to get owned OOP in a 3bet pot.