Sit and go very stupid play

    • Rahica
      Rahica
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 149
      Hi ! Just today I was in the casino where I work, playing a live tournament between us, employees. It was a 20 Euros buy in, 10 euros re-buy ( 2 re-buys allowed, first one 4000 chips, second one 5000 ), 10 euros add-on ( 6000 chips ), 9 players.The starting stack was 4000 chips and the blinds were 25-50, 50-100, 100-200, 200-400, 300-600 ( add on break ). After the break, there are no antes ( strange ) and the blinds start to go 400-800, 500-1000, 600-1200 etc. First of all I would like you to tell me your opinion about this structure which for me doesn't seem very professional because it helps passive players a lot.

      Now I will tell you the hand that pissed me off and I was so angry about my play and about what happened that I threw the cards aggressively on the table ( that's not me, normally I am very calm and calculated ). The biggest fish at the table built a stack after calling my preflop all in with 55 against my AA, but I congratulated him and I rebuy-ed. Later in the game, 5 handed, 500-1000 the blinds, I found myself in the BB holding 99. First to act with a stack of 3800 wants to go all in, but he string bets the last 800 so his bet was just 3000, the fish calls ( 50.000 stack ), fold fold, and for some stupid reason I decided just to call ( and I hate myself for not shoving now ). I was the second stack and I was afraid not to be eliminated so I choose the light but stupid decision. On the flop, T T T, I check, first to act goes all in the 800 he has left, the big fish calls and then, I decided to go all in. Instant call from the stupid fish who shows KT, quads on the flop and I finished in the bubble ( three places paid, I finished fourth ).
      If I could play the hand one more time, I would chose an instant all in pre-flop. If I chose to call, my play post-flop still seems like the best one. Please tell me what do you think about the hand and how would you play it ! Thanks a lot !
  • 6 replies
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      Hi, Rahica!


      I don't have any experience in live poker, but I am not sure why and how you think it will benefit the passive players. Can you, please, share your thoughts on it?

      As for the current hand, you have the right idea. You need to go all in preflop. You dominate both ranges, but you don't wanna see flops. Fish's money I would just take as dead money and if he happens to call, I would expect to be ahead of his range drastically. Problem here is risk aversion if you were right on the bubble. But I still somehow expect the big stack fish to be able to fold QJ and KT on your shove as a second stack.
    • ghaleon
      ghaleon
      Black
      Joined: 17.10.2007 Posts: 5,877
      From my live experience that structure is bit weird. Usually blinds would go up with bit smaller steps in early game (e.g. 75/150, 150/300 might be there somewhere) and then blinds tend to go up in bit bigger steps later.

      In the hand you forgot to mention your stack size. Is it 20k or 49k? Anyway postflop betting flop would be ok line from you. You have very likely best hand, but if you get big stack off the hand it's ok for you. If he then decides to raise your bet you might even have reason to fold (depending of your stack size) as you then have to ask would villain raise with anything worse?
    • Rahica
      Rahica
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 149
      Thanks for the answers !

      First I will answer your tournament structure question kurrcabin:

      1. the stacks are pretty big for a rebuy add-on ( stars with 80BB )

      2. the blinds are set to 20 min ( regular live tournaments vary between 10 and 30, depending on the tournament; normally, only the main events / big tournaments have blinds over 20 min ). Also the blinds go up very fast in the beginning and stops growing in the middle of the tournament.

      3. there are no antes so a player can fold a lot of bad hands, keep his stack longer and wait for a premium hand. 3-4 years ago, when you were playing a live tournament in a casino, antes were not very popular, but nowadays, I don't remember seeing a tournament without them, live or online.

      Being a TAG and always raising premium and only premium ( in the table like that, with people who just want to see a flop ) can pay off in the long term with this type of structure.

      I see that ghaleon shares the same idea about the structure as I do.


      Fish's range was pretty wide: any connectors, any suited cards, any suited connector, Ax, any pocket pair and any 2 cards T+. However, I'm pretty sure that he knew that his hand was no good if I shoved.

      Sorry about that ! My stack was 23.000 and the fish had 50.000 . The short stack bet 3000, the fish call and I called. I am sure I didn't think clearly when I took the decision to call and I blame it all on tiredness. As you guys said, a shove would've been the best choice. I'm pretty sure that he knew that his hand was no good if I shoved.

      I have 2 questions now:

      1. Would you chose a raise with that stack size instead of an all in ( and if you would, how much? ).

      2. Presuming that you chose to call ( by mistake you dropped 3000 in the middle of the table, otherwise I can't explain it :) ). What would be your play after short stack all in ( 1 BB ) and fish's call?
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      If the fish is passive (eg would flat call 3000 even with AA) I would not shove 99 on the bubble with 23bb. You say you are pretty sure he would know his hand is no good, yet he called you with 55 vs AA. I think flat calling preflop with position is fine.

      Instead of shoving the flop, I would reraise to 2400 with the intention of folding to a reraise however the problem with a passive fish is that he's almost always going to slowplay quads and probably a full house, yet also will likely call a reraise with two over cards. It's just unlucky that that flop gives you a pretty decent hand against his range but he hits the nuts, because his playing style means you're probably not going to get away from losing a lot of chips unless turn or river are overcards and even then against his range you might be missing value by not betting.
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      Oh, thanks for the detailed explanation. So, we should think of terms of BIs here. If we put the shortie on a side, we have 23bb eff. vs the chipleader and we hold 99. When the shortie comes in, I would assume always that we are ahead of his range. I would even put him sometimes on a weaker range, because by raising to 3000 with only 800 left, it looks to me like he's hoping for some extra FE. People don't look for an extra FE with premium holdings. On the other hand, you said that you were on the bubble, so his move could be quite smart actually. Because he can raise and then fold if both you and the chipleader get all the money in pre. He would get amazing odds, but the ICM tax would be so great, that he would need to call only KK/AA or similar.

      To your questions:

      -with 23bb and no antes- yes, I will raise with 99. Depending on the position and opponents I face, I will go anywhere from min raise to 2.5x. But maybe life game is different, I've heard stories about how ppl raise 6-7x with 50bb eff. or somebody calls a raise with 8bb and then folds to a cbet. So....maybe my advice is not optimal. If you are in the SB, facing and aggressive chipleader BB, you can even openshove with 99 and it's gonna be the best move as raise/folding is sad and raise/calling will be quite marginal with a shortie and huge icm tax due to the bubble effect.

      -my play will be exactly as yours. I would raise shove. Shortie needs to win against everyone and I need to lose against the chipleader in order to bubble out. I also need protection, I want value, etc, etc.
    • Rahica
      Rahica
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 149
      The 3800 guy, forget about him:) . That's just a live poker mistake, it's called a string bet and it means that he wanted to go all in by placing 3000 chips in the middle of the hand and after that, with the second movement, 800 more ( which is impossible in live poker because the rules in most of the casino say that if you don't announce the amount you want to raise and you don't raise it all in one move, only the first bet counts ). So don't try to figure out why he kept 800 chips, he just wanted to go all in but the rules didn't let him:) .

      In live poker player's range tend to drop a lot comparing to online ones because online you can play an average of 15-20 hands in 15 min. However live poker allows you to play 4-7 hands, depending on the dealer's and player's skills.
      My conclusion is that I am pretty sure that my 2.5 raise would get called after an all in and a call from a guy with 50BB and I am pretty sure that I would call as well with KT and his stack.

      Thanks for the answers !