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MMT to cash aint so easy!?

    • dyeti
      Joined: 31.07.2012 Posts: 22
      Hello all, I wonder if the comunity could help me out a bit here:

      First a bit about my poker carer to date. I started playing MTT's in 2005 and I would consider myself as semi-pro. I play about 30 hours a week, I have won over $1.2 mill with about a quarter of that being profits. (I know that sounds like a brag but I am just saying that I do know how to play the game, or at least the MTT format of it). I love playing MTT's and as long as I can make profits I will continue to play them, but here is my problem. Since joining this site I have had to earn points to watch the video's (which are great btw) so to do this I started playing cash tables on some sites I had never played on before. I enjoyed this and being the action junkie that I am have started playing a lot of games on zoom. I have played cash games in the past and at mid/high stakes (up to 1000nl and 50/100 limit) but have never enjoyed it enough to keep it up and never felt like I was really beating it so I always resorted back to what I know best. This time around I stared at playing 50nl lost a couple of buy ins so stepped down to 25nl lost a couple of buy ins so went down to 10nl where I guess I am holding my own. Holding my own at 10nl is not acceptable to me. That won't keep food on my table, so I would like to see what people think I am doing that is so wrong. I have my own ideas and I am trying to work on these things, such as being too aggressive and going to showdown too much, c-betting too much, (hence the red line is trending upwards while the blue line is going in the wrong direction, right?). All these things I think are very +ev in most MTT's but they don't seem to be as helpful in cash games.
      I would like to see what other people think. Below I have put a couple of screen shots of my reports and graphs:

      I hope these links work o.k., first time I've tried it.

      Can I thank you all in advance for taking a look at this post and for any comments you care to post.
  • 8 replies
    • dyeti
      Joined: 31.07.2012 Posts: 22
      thx for all the advice everyone :(
    • Deomedes
      Joined: 12.11.2011 Posts: 156
      I am not the best to advice you man primary because there are many better ones here to do the job and secondly because Fast Fold poker is not my thing.

      But, so as to keep the comments coming i will try at least to give you some ideas about the obvious things, thought you have not defined if we speak about full ring or 6max i will answer for 6max NL10.

      First of all, i would like to see more stats like AFq for every street and W$WSF, Turn cbet %, cold call pre flop and/or call pfr, along with RFI.

      With that information alone I think that you cbet way to much for these stakes 60%-70% is good.

      At the same time, you Aggression Frequency is low so probably you give up a lot on the turn. Of course you red line doesn't say so but that difference on FCbet% and AFq cannot be many things.

      Last but no least, your WTSD is high. Sample is not big but 33 is high. It is better to be around 25%-27% with 30% top. That is being shown from W$SD also which has to be 52%+. Surely, you might run bad but you EV line doesn't say the same story. So running good and having that low W$SD is not acceptable.

      To sum up i think that all the above are known to you one way or the other but if you want us to be more helpful be more precise, post more information and if possible positionally based stats.
    • VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 10,721
      These are just random thoughts after reading your post and looking at your stats and graphs.

      First, as a long-time MTT player, I'm guessing that you have become rather used to losing hands. Or avoiding otherwise profitable hands because external factors apply in MTTs that don't apply in cash games -- there is no bubble for example.

      In cash games each and every hand is all new.

      What stack size are you playing? In MTTs it seems to me you start with v small stacks compared to cash games. Do you auto-top-up in cash games? If you don't when you do go all-in you are losing value.

      Since joining this site I have had to earn points to watch the video's (which are great btw) so to do this I started playing cash tables on some sites I had never played on before.
      Implied in that is the notion that your goal is to get points.
      It is probably not, but it kinda sounds like it.
    • Tomaloc
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 7,020
      fr? 6max? looks more like fr

      first i'd like to reiterate that your nl10 graph is NOT okay.
      as i'm sure that you know by this point, EV bucks is a better measurement as to how well you are doing, and the graph shows you running like god whenever the monies get in.

      anyway yeah, your sample is not the biggest sample ever but try to post the other leakbuster windows such as positional stats, it is almost certain that there are enough things going wrong but these stats are just too little.
      let's comment on what we can see though

      if fr 3bet seems a bit high, specially if you don't have the skills to back it up.
      cbet % is definitely very very high whatever the format, specially if you're just going into turn c/f mode a lot of the time.
      other postflop stuff seems to indicate that you are somewhat of a showdown monkey and may be having a hard time letting go of one pair type of hands, even TPTK is not often a strong enough hand to ship the monies in a single raised pot.

      on another note, the whole of vpip/pfr/3bet seems interesting.
      if you're 3betting that much and still have such a gap you may also be calling too much pre... also what happened from nl50 to nl10 :P
    • dyeti
      Joined: 31.07.2012 Posts: 22
      Firstly a genuine thanks for replying, all input is really appreciated.

      I will try to clear up what I can and provide a bit more info and screen shots to show more of just exactly how badly I'm making this transition (clearly not going to be a full transition as I can make good money at MTT's and am a useless monkey at cash).

      All these stats are from 6 max zoom/fastforward poker.

      From watching a lot of bogdans videos I can see that my c-bet is way too high, so I obviously need to be paying more attention to flop textures rather than just auto firing. I am hoping this will get me in less tricky spots and will in turn deswade me from taking hands to far which I am obviously doing as the WTSD% is too high. Also it looks to me like I am doing something seriously wrong in the BB the loss rate there seems way too high, I think I am just cold calling way too much in that position. (is that correct?)

      I am truly amazed that the skills from MTT's aren't as easily transferable as I thought they would be. I am hoping that by improving my cash game play it will help my MTT play too. Does anyone think that the reverse might be the case?
    • dyeti
      Joined: 31.07.2012 Posts: 22
      oh and always rebuy to max, of course.
    • Saren113
      Joined: 06.03.2009 Posts: 2,973
      Well the big diffrence is that you dosen't have the bust factor i cash game or well only with fish who only plays with 1 bi. You are obv already betting thin as your redline is going up.

      We got some great BSS coaches here on pokerstrategy and you can see alot with goldstatus =) .

      Gl at the tables!
    • Deomedes
      Joined: 12.11.2011 Posts: 156
      My first thinking when i listen your background as a player was why didn't you play a midstack strategy on a normal 6 max table.

      I mean playing a midstack stategy would have been closer to the usual MTT situation you know how to deal with. And by playing at a normal table you could use your experience and hand reading ability to hide some of your cash game leaks. 100bb deep 6max zoom poker vs MTT FR strategy is day and night for me.

      Anyway, your cold calling frequency is very good though even bigger , like 9%, would be acceptable also. Of course, i do not really get your thinking of calling that much from the big blind and yes it is a big leak.

      It is not that big of a discount that you are getting from the BB in cash games and if you want to call that wide you have to check raise air way too often on many dry boards. I mean what is with the passiveness postflop with only 26 Flop aggression Freq from the BB? Yes you don't hit often but you are leaving too much dead money there.

      As i had guessed before you are an one and done kind of cbettor , which leaves too much dead money also and that is primary due to your high flop cbetting freq.

      Of course, you should also pay attention to your Turn and River Aggression Freq which is low. Again that might be the case because you are not used to have that much money left vs unknown opponents that regularly.

      Also when i try to relate your W$WSF with your Agg% and your W$TSD i get some inconsistency. I mean you are not that aggressive postflop , even if we exclude your blind play, but still your W$WSF is high. Probably due to positive variance . But if you have good variance (which you had on nl10 but on all limits it evened out) why so low W$TSD?

      I can only conclude to bad river decisions caused by sub-optimal plays on the turn. Plays like checking back turns a lot only to call with sec pair on the river, giving free cards , not thin value betting stations (opponents you take value on the turn even with sec pair on wet boards), calling turn raises with just Top pair only to call on the river again and stuff like that.

      So my advice would be to play normal 6max tables with less money and

      A) study your Turn play. Barrel all cards that improve your equity or scare cards, thin value bet wet boards, check back turn only to induce or give up (except vs some nits w Top pairs Top kicker on dry boards or times you have flopped trips where you can value bet most rivers while checking back turns)

      B) Cbet less flops

      C) Call less from the BB

      D) Call more from the BTN so as to raise draws on the flop and get a feel
      on how to play draws aggressively on cash games. And when you are good at barreling the right turn cards and raising the right boards on the flop in position , try doing it out of position with more money in your stack.

      And for curiosity purposes if you filter Top pair hand on the flop how many blinds you win on average?

      Since i wrote so many things i do not know if i manage to keep myself clear in every subject but Hopefully i helped you a little.