Bots

    • Cardbender
      Cardbender
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.03.2008 Posts: 1,070
      My roommate is a computer master and he said he could build a bot that could encompass all pokerstrategys "strategies" for various play and it would be like your playing by the set SSS rules or whatever.... I told him they are illegal so he wont spend the time on them, he is too buisy anyway. But he said there is no way to tell if someone is using a bot. Is this true?
  • 24 replies
    • SoyCD
      SoyCD
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      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 6,356
      Depending on how advanced a bot is it can be difficult to detect but certainly possible. It is 100% illegal though and I would recommend him to stay away from it. In the long run it will end with his account being closed and the money being confiscated.

      Best regards,
      SoyCD
    • swissmoumout
      swissmoumout
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.02.2007 Posts: 3,385
      a SSS-playing bot would be pretty easy to make, but poker rooms can detect them... it can go from "timing tells" (although that can be easily fixed by randomizing the time taken for every action), to image recognition (stars actually uses this, an image shows up in the chat and you have to enter the letters in less than 100seconds), to calling you directly
    • Dippy19
      Dippy19
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      Joined: 04.12.2007 Posts: 1,346
      Originally posted by swissmoumout
      a SSS-playing bot would be pretty easy to make, but poker rooms can detect them... it can go from "timing tells" (although that can be easily fixed by randomizing the time taken for every action), to image recognition (stars actually uses this, an image shows up in the chat and you have to enter the letters in less than 100seconds), to calling you directly
      What about if you have your chat turned off and don't hear your phone when it rings?
    • swissmoumout
      swissmoumout
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      Joined: 23.02.2007 Posts: 3,385
      What about if you have your chat turned off and don't hear your phone when it rings?
      Chat turned off isn't a problem, and if you can't hear your phone you should change the ringtone ;)
    • Cardbender
      Cardbender
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.03.2008 Posts: 1,070
      Originally posted by SoyCD
      Depending on how advanced a bot is it can be difficult to detect but certainly possible. It is 100% illegal though and I would recommend him to stay away from it. In the long run it will end with his account being closed and the money being confiscated.

      Best regards,
      SoyCD

      No he doesnt play poker really. And i know he won't try to build this but he could do it if he wanted to. We were just talking on a theoretical basis and I was wondering what people thought of the idea.


      Also make you wonder if people use these progs.
    • Drakhor
      Drakhor
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      Joined: 13.01.2008 Posts: 554
      Even bots get sucked out by fishes. :tongue:
    • timukasr
      timukasr
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      Joined: 26.05.2007 Posts: 1,820
      You can make a bot as more diciplined you :D
    • arjun2001
      arjun2001
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      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 352
      I was actually thinking about this as well. Not about building one coz I am pretty bad with these machines. But about computer programmers who could make SSS bot.

      Since the strategy is fairly easy and 100% programmable, but I am sure on big shots like pokerstars and full tilt, the bot would be detected pretty fast.
    • riv3rd4ncer
      riv3rd4ncer
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.02.2008 Posts: 81
      i have an account at ultimatebet and their low stakes cash games are filled with bots. seems like they don't really care. (then again, ultimatebet should have bigger issues to worry about :P )
      the bots play a sort of sss, but less solid (always all in on flop) and they make weird bluffs regularly. when you are aware of this, they become pretty easy to bust, but they still win a lot of pots against fishier players.
      overall, they're no big winners, but with a decent rakeback and the amount of time they grind a month, even breaking even should become quite profitable.
    • Reverand221
      Reverand221
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      Joined: 24.02.2008 Posts: 264
      SoyCD:
      (...) It is 100% illegal though (...)


      I cannot agree with that. Why should a government be interested in prohibiting a bot software by law? xD (There are even big poker bot building departments with highest graduated mathematicians working on it at many universities.)

      Of course, you should be careful with that matter, because using bot software could easily cause your account being closed as said before.

      So, if you build one, build a good one! ;)

      By the way, one could even think of a semiautomated bot. The human player is still interacting with the poker client, but the bot software sais you, what you should do. If you can build this on your own, and dont sell or distribute it, I would say, it's your damned right to do so. Nobody can restrict you in how you apply your playing strategy!
    • SoyCD
      SoyCD
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      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 6,356
      Originally posted by Reverand221
      SoyCD:
      (...) It is 100% illegal though (...)


      I cannot agree with that. Why should a government be interested in prohibiting a bot software by law? xD (There are even big poker bot building departments with highest graduated mathematicians working on it at many universities.)
      Sorry for the perhaps unclear formulation. I of course meant illegal in terms of "not allowed / in violation" in regards to the terms and conditions dictated by PokerRooms :)

      In regards to semi-automated bots: these are also largely forbidden by the TOS of poker platforms. Only recently stars banned "ICM bots" which were able to perform live ICM calculations. Basically most software which take large amounts of decision making away from the user is not allowed.

      Best regards,
      SoyCD
    • brian997
      brian997
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.04.2008 Posts: 475
      Bots are illegal at Stars, but that is it believe it or not.
      I've used one (I have the link but can't post, sorry) on Titan, Party and Carbon Poker before.
      It has a number of ways of not getting caught including randomizing the click button, and occasioanally it would chat for you, saying things like "nh" or "wow" etc.

      The big benefit to these bots is that you can turn one on, and it would fold all your hands/check, and alert you whenever you have a monster and are in position. Thus you can play SSS post flop on as many tables as possible, while the bot plays preflop for you.

      I did it for about two weeks, and found my winrate was higher on my own playing 8 tables, than playing 16 with the bot. It would occasionally fold hands like KQ in the small blind position etc.

      But they are not illegal. If you read the TOS (and I know no one does), it says that any software you wish to use is okay, as long as it does not gain an unfair advantage by accessing the random number generator.
    • Reverand221
      Reverand221
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.02.2008 Posts: 264
      Pokerstrategy provides starting hand charts, blind defense charts and so on. No beginner would be able to develop such a chart for himself. It's calculated from millions of recorded hands and mathematical theory by expert players. It is taking away a lot of thinking from the player and giving him a big edge over most other players!

      If a player learns a strategy and learns how to apply it successfully, why shouldn't he implement a software, which assists him while playing (Even if it is a mathematical perfectly working piece of software)?

      Of course ONLY, if he sticks to playing himself and not letting the bot click the buttons. AND, the bot is built by the player himself 100% and the player does not sell and distribute it to others.
    • Reverand221
      Reverand221
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      Joined: 24.02.2008 Posts: 264
      If you read the TOS (and I know no one does), it says that any software you wish to use is okay, as long as it does not gain an unfair advantage by accessing the random number generator.


      That excludes all software, which does live equity calculations with a monte carlo algorithm for example. In my eyes it excludes also all the preflop charts, which im sure are never calculated completely without monte carlo algorithms. And the success of many pokerstrategy players also proofs, that they gain some kind of advantage over other players from the content provided here.. partly from the charts for sure.

      As an example, it's common to use a poker tracker software with advanced headsup display, which give you information about other players, you could never find out that exactly by heart. There's no discussion that this might be unfair.

      If one writes a program, which assists him in preflop play with automatic chart lookups or giving him hints about which lines are appropriate in specific situations, everybody shouts OMG, cheater.

      I mean, as long as he is not letting the bot clicking a button alone, he's just playing as he could do "manually". BUT, the benefit from a poker tracker software can never be compensated with manual play!
    • swissmoumout
      swissmoumout
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      Joined: 23.02.2007 Posts: 3,385
      Originally posted by Reverand221
      If you read the TOS (and I know no one does), it says that any software you wish to use is okay, as long as it does not gain an unfair advantage by accessing the random number generator.


      That excludes all software, which does live equity calculations with a monte carlo algorithm for example. In my eyes it excludes also all the preflop charts, which im sure are never calculated completely without monte carlo algorithms. And the success of many pokerstrategy players also proofs, that they gain some kind of advantage over other players from the content provided here.. partly from the charts for sure.

      As an example, it's common to use a poker tracker software with advanced headsup display, which give you information about other players, you could never find out that exactly by heart. There's no discussion that this might be unfair.

      If one writes a program, which assists him in preflop play with automatic chart lookups or giving him hints about which lines are appropriate in specific situations, everybody shouts OMG, cheater.

      I mean, as long as he is not letting the bot clicking a button alone, he's just playing as he could do "manually". BUT, the benefit from a poker tracker software can never be compensated with manual play!
      Again, you're missing the point. A bot plays for you. Trackers and heads-up displays give you information on hands you played in the past. They don't interfere with the game itself in the least bit.
      It's really surprising that bots aren't forbidden at all sites..they should really do something about them...
    • Reverand221
      Reverand221
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.02.2008 Posts: 264
      Again, you're missing the point. A bot plays for you.


      Please read my posts again carefully.

      By the way, why do you use stats, if they dont interfere your decision right in the middle of a hand?
    • swissmoumout
      swissmoumout
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.02.2007 Posts: 3,385
      If you're referring to this:
      Of course ONLY, if he sticks to playing himself and not letting the bot click the buttons
      That's still a bot. And it's kinda against the rules of poker
    • swissmoumout
      swissmoumout
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.02.2007 Posts: 3,385
      Originally posted by brian997
      Bots are illegal at Stars, but that is it believe it or not.
      wrong-o ^^

      PartyPoker terms of use
      28.4. Anti-Cheating Policy

      We are committed to preventing the use of unfair practices in the Gaming Services, including but not limited to player collusion. We are also committed to detecting and preventing the use of software programs which are designed to enable artificial intelligence to play on our Platforms including, but not limited to, opponent-profiling, cheating software or anything else that we deem enables you to have an unfair advantage over other players not using such programs or systems ('AI Software'). You acknowledge that the Group will take measures to detect and prevent the use of such programs and AI Software using methods (including but not limited to reading the list of currently running programs on a player's computer) and you agree not to use any AI Software and/or any such programs. Go to our Unfair Advantage Policy.
    • Reverand221
      Reverand221
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      Joined: 24.02.2008 Posts: 264
      Playing with a chart is botting too ....
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