Pokerstars 180player MTTSNG strategy.

  • 21 replies
    • Deflowerer
      Deflowerer
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.05.2008 Posts: 174
      It sounds stupid but I wait for a very strong hand and hit all in.
      At the beginning I'll even fold AJ off s and only limp in with a small pair.If the cards don't come I guess you'll have to push and bluff a few times.It worked pretty well on poker Sense (i4 poker),I was in the top 10 tourney players at the end of the month.

      I suggest you w8 for a better advice : P,not sure that this is good for small stake SNG's.
    • ManniXXX
      ManniXXX
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.09.2007 Posts: 707
      I played a $4 yesterday, I really can't believe how fishy these are.

      I had one double up and was card dead for the rest. I'm sitting on 2k chips, 21 players left (18 paid), the blinds are only at 200/400 and everyones sitting around me with 20k stacks and I'm craving Fold equity like there's no tomorrow.

      Strategy would be the same for any tournament tbh. If they are all as fishy as the one I played yesterday then beware of your greatly lessened FE but shove lose when you have loose maniacs range crushed.
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Originally posted by Deflowerer
      It sounds stupid but I wait for a very strong hand and hit all in.
      At the beginning I'll even fold AJ off s and only limp in with a small pair.
      Your right, it does sound stupid, and is stupid. Tight is right in these SnG's. hitting allin is a huge no no first in. foldig AJs and AQo is good play early on, in earlyish position.

      You only want to be playing premium hands 1st in. In late position with limpers, suited connectors and pocket pairs are good to limp. As its been stated, you only need 1 double up to reach ITM usually. So just wait for the premium hands. You should have good knowledge of ICM, as in the push/fold stage, you can gather alot of chips easily.
    • Deflowerer
      Deflowerer
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.05.2008 Posts: 174
      Originally posted by cannell555
      Originally posted by Deflowerer
      It sounds stupid but I wait for a very strong hand and hit all in.
      At the beginning I'll even fold AJ off s and only limp in with a small pair.
      Your right, it does sound stupid, and is stupid. Tight is right in these SnG's. hitting allin is a huge no no first in. foldig AJs and AQo is good play early on, in earlyish position.

      You only want to be playing premium hands 1st in. In late position with limpers, suited connectors and pocket pairs are good to limp. As its been stated, you only need 1 double up to reach ITM usually. So just wait for the premium hands. You should have good knowledge of ICM, as in the push/fold stage, you can gather alot of chips easily.
      I already said it was stupid.
      Could you somehow please get off my back Carnell?It's like a third post that you're trying to be a smart ass quoting me.

      ty

      p.s. we can put some h-up game if you want =)
    • arjun2001
      arjun2001
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 352
      Originally posted by Deflowerer
      Originally posted by cannell555
      Originally posted by Deflowerer
      It sounds stupid but I wait for a very strong hand and hit all in.
      At the beginning I'll even fold AJ off s and only limp in with a small pair.
      Your right, it does sound stupid, and is stupid. Tight is right in these SnG's. hitting allin is a huge no no first in. foldig AJs and AQo is good play early on, in earlyish position.

      You only want to be playing premium hands 1st in. In late position with limpers, suited connectors and pocket pairs are good to limp. As its been stated, you only need 1 double up to reach ITM usually. So just wait for the premium hands. You should have good knowledge of ICM, as in the push/fold stage, you can gather alot of chips easily.
      I already said it was stupid.
      Could you somehow please get off my back Carnell?It's like a third post that you're trying to be a smart ass quoting me.

      ty

      p.s. we can put some h-up game if you want =)
      Invite me if it happens pls.... :D
    • Semesa
      Semesa
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2008 Posts: 294
      i play MTT every day(live) and i find the best way to play these are to play tAG, but always keep your stack at a 10BB minimum.

      if the blinds are about to go up and you have 14 blinds, start looking to steal or loosen up a little for a couple of hands to try to get your stack up.

      you play for chips rather than equity(as opposed to SnG's)
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Deflowerer,

      Your right I have made comments towards you in other threads also. Why?

      You tell people (who are asking for good advice) to do the most stupidest shit ever. You are telling them to go against all the pokerstrategy articles.

      I think you stated in another thread, that you used to play NL100, which tbh, I dont believe one bit.

      But, fair play to you! because everytime I read your posts my grin gets wider! :) :D

      I dont play HU. If you want to play a set of 9 $22 and $33 SnG's on titan with me, I would happily accept. (and spank your ass ofc)

      Stiev
    • sirilidion
      sirilidion
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2008 Posts: 1,575
      I got an article of some guy that posted on a tread from a site I don't know any more but through a link of pokernews.nl. But the document is 5 pags long so I don't know if posting it here is a good idea. It basicly tells you what you could do through the blind levels and what stack you're at least aming at to get. He also advise to use HUD.

      got 3rd ones whicj was alright but made a few mistakes at the end so that bothered me :( .

      If anyone whats that article please tell me where is the best place to post it?
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      If the article is telling you to aim for a certain amount of chips at a certain blind level. I wouldn't even give my time up to read it. An article cant say that. I have read similar articles myself and they are aloud of sh*te tbh. You have to play mtt's, by adapting to situations. Sure you can have a tag/lag style strategy.
    • sirilidion
      sirilidion
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2008 Posts: 1,575
      jah I didn't like that to of the article but it had some good tips and I didn't put much meaning to the chip goals. but the article does have some good tips on how you could play in the different levels.
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Tournaments can be played LaG, or TaG imo. Better players will deviate, and change gears easily, depending on chips and the table. You cant be told when you hit the 3rd blind level, then loosen up. Siply because this depends hugely on chip stacks.

      A beginner should just play TaG in tourneys, regardless of their chip stacks imo. If they feel like they can handle gear changes fine. But a writen article cant really tell you how to play a MTT imo. Theres too many key factors involved. I dont even like the SHC's in tournaments, because every tournament table is different, and in tournaments you need to adapt to the suroundings.
    • myroyalflush
      myroyalflush
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.07.2008 Posts: 4
      THEM JUST PLAY,NOT WANT WIN.
    • Deflowerer
      Deflowerer
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.05.2008 Posts: 174
      Just finished 180 S$G,4,40$

      I was the chip leader in last 40 with more than half chips than 2nd.
      First I get called with 9,6 off suite by a moron who wasn't short-stacked (had KK) and a few hands later AKs by 22.
      Both of them were preflop all in raises.
      It's like the software is made to fck up the chip leader,unbeliavable.Slow playing those hands?It's a suicide,especially with AA.

      Strategy?I won a few 180 SNG's by sucking out and apologizing to people constantly. =)

      p.s. just hate all in KK-AA,it's very common on Poker stars in a first few hands.How the f could I fold KK? O.o
      It happens especially if you won 2-3 tourneys before...
    • Deflowerer
      Deflowerer
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.05.2008 Posts: 174
      Originally posted by cannell555
      Deflowerer,

      Your right I have made comments towards you in other threads also. Why?

      You tell people (who are asking for good advice) to do the most stupidest shit ever. You are telling them to go against all the pokerstrategy articles.

      I think you stated in another thread, that you used to play NL100, which tbh, I dont believe one bit.

      But, fair play to you! because everytime I read your posts my grin gets wider! :) :D

      I dont play HU. If you want to play a set of 9 $22 and $33 SnG's on titan with me, I would happily accept. (and spank your ass ofc)

      Stiev
      I don't play on Titan.I would gladly accept your offer but only if it's c-game on 4 tables.
      p.s. I play live poker and probably have won more tournaments than you ever will.Those articles are great but I have a big problem with net-poker constantly.It's not possible that every time I'm up more than 1k I get sucked out on a river at least 5 times with hands you just can't fold (talking about set against set and over pair vs over pair,AA-KK-QQ).

      Now I only play tournaments and small stake c-games to kill the time between tourneys but for you I will pump up my stack.
      Contact me if you ever come across Betfair.
      Peace and gl ^^
    • ihufa
      ihufa
      Gold
      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      i won the 12$ 180 person 5 times and 2 times second. Play like a normal s&g, tight then loosen up
    • jmackenzie
      jmackenzie
      Silver
      Joined: 04.06.2008 Posts: 1,241
      these mtt i tend to play tight in general as players are really bad. Later on in stages you quite often find people stealin on the button and cut-off also the sb. Rather than doing this yourself i think light 3-betting against these bad players produces nice chip rewards. i also notice on the bubble, the play dramatically tightens on the 180 people ones ive played in the past. If i have any sort of chipstack that can take a few resteals i will open raise alot of pots aslong as the bb isnt incredibly shortstacked.
    • AnderX
      AnderX
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2008 Posts: 170
      Tight in early stage.
      Use position...look for the rookies who call all in whit a pair
      Try to get in the money and then aim for first place
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Default play untill first break - tight, raise big hands and be willing to go broke with them, limp with SCs, and small PPs, do not raise em unless you get on table full of nits, but that happens very rarely. Pay atention to the table, use HUD, recognize fish, some of them love to see flops and let it go if don't hit big, some of them will call you light.
      After the first break, there will usually be one or more terrible players left which got really lucky, sucked out etc. Mainly maybe nits, and sometimes one or two seemingly good players. You should allready know who is who, and play accordingly. Play accordingly to your M score, usually here you get to loosen up. I don't remember when the blinds reaches 100/50 but at this point blind stealing kicks in to play. Other players usually wait a little longer, maybe when the ante kicks in, but when everyone starts stealing you actually should stop for a while, and play a little tighter. Resteals are important, StopNgo is a way to go when restealing here, imho because many blind stealers are still bad and loves to see flops even with trash worth hand and may call your push preflop ending up your tournament life on coinflips. Buble play - standart do not be afraid to drop out here, the only places worth playing is first few. After buble tighten up a little, because player will be willing much more to gamble. On final table, some of them tightens up and are willing to fold, fold, fold and some of them are willing to raise, raise, raise play accordingly. It's very basic, but you don't need to do anything fancy to win.
    • Immanueldk
      Immanueldk
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.02.2009 Posts: 55
      I had copied this from another forum, I think it could be very usefull for you.

      180 SIT N GO

      Alright been trying to figure out a way to write this well,with enough helpful information for anyone who's looking to either add in 180s to their MTT daily routine or switch to them from SNGs or cash games.


      Alright here are just same basic reasons why you should play 180:

      A Volume, you can't beat the frequency these tourneys run during the peak hours you can get 2-3 at the 10 and 20 level while 5-6 at the 4 level

      B Time commitment, I would guesstimate the time till the end of a 180 to be an avg around 3 hours 20min which is 2-3 times shorter than your avg tourney with 15min blind levels.

      C Payouts, They pay 10% but it is very top heavy 10-18th get double the buyin while 1st gets 54 times the buyin.

      D Preparation, The good thing about the 180s field size being capped at such a low number is you get to be invovled many endgame situations. That means when you start getting to the FT of 5fig+ for first tourneys you won't be such a beginner at that stage.

      E. The players, You get such a wide range of players that you get much stronger as a player against the spectrum of fish as well as mtt experts. This will help a player learn how to adjust to table conditions as often you are moving tables and needed to readjust and reconnect with the flow of the table

      F. Cost, you can't really beat 180s for their low buyins which are great for anyone trying to build up a roll and with the 3 different levels as well as the increasingly popular 50/90s you can grind out a nice roll very quickly to move on to bigger tourneys

      Alright now for some strategy tips I will try to hit most of the important moves and ideas behind each move you make. I would recommend that if you don't have pokertracker and pahud to go and get them since some advice I give you you need that for the information. Also, one thing I like to do is every time the blind levels change to try to figure out where you want to be stack wise etc by the next level. So I will break this down by blind levels for 180s.

      Level 1 10/20
      Now, everyone stars with 75bbs don't be shy with your strong hands a big mistake I see people make is open raising 5-6x with 10s or AQo etc hands that are most likely to be best PF but are rarely hands you are very confident post flop with. I would advise making some over limps with SCs small pairs etc, this is the only stage where it's not a big mistake to be passing PF. Most likely the players you will be playing many pots against are the fish and weaker players since many of the better players are prob multitabling and thus folding a lot of marginal hands. So seize this great time to take chips off those who will give them up easily. I am not afraid of big pots on any hand because remember it's a 180 and another one prob is 1/3rd of the way registered.

      Stack goal 2000



      Level 2 15/30
      Alright now you should be noticing whose been limping half the hands and prob dwindled theirs tack down to 800 and those at 1450 who haven't played a hand yet. Use that knowledge when playing hands notice what type of opp you are against and adjust. Pay attention to stack sizes too when you are against 1 of those weak players bleeding chips as you should be trying to do they prob have less chips so be keen on that when you are getting to the turn and the pot has eclipsed their stack.

      Stack goal 3000

      Level 3 25/50
      Alright now like 1/4th of the field is gone and it's going to get tougher but hopefully you were able to win lots of small pots by raising the weak limpers and c-betting or got lucky to stack someone. Players aren't as deep anymore and expect a few of the tight players to open up a little more at this level. There still will be plenty of spots to take a flop vs one of the weak players who hopefully doubled up like you so you can be 60bb deep with him and hopefully win a monster pot. Be warry a lot of PF 3bets start to commit people. Also notice the stack sizes to your left

      Stack goal 3500

      Level 4 50/100

      Alright this is when it starts to switch to less postflop play and more raise/shoving so adjust your PF opening range to hands that do better with short stacks AIPF. Again I echo look at stack sizes when you raise 3x which should be your standard open with no limpers ask yourself what do you do if player X shoves or if he raises half his stack etc. Ask yourself those questions before you raise. It may help you make a better decision if it's worth it to try to steal from that position. Also, around this level you prob will be down to half the field in a 4 and 10 and prob 100 left in a 20.

      Stack goal 4000 and a 5min break to focus on other tourneys

      Level 5 75/150
      2nd hour now things are def starting to kick in gear hopefully you are slightly above avg stack right now as it gives you more breathing room as for next 15min you will battle those nits who've folded their way down to 600 chips. The only postflop play you should be apart off is when you raise and someone calls you. Most of your pots for now on you should be the aggressor makes it much more effective. Also, don't be afraid to shove your stack in there if a squeeze appears or someone won't leave your BB alone. Don't shy from races at this stage they are necessary in tourneys even in these middle stages

      Stack goal 4500



      Level 6 100/200
      This is actually my favorite level in a 180 due to the fact most of the other regulars like to wait till antees kick in to start stealing and restealing a lot, so while they are waiting 15 more min I start to really have fun. The fields have thinned by now and the avg player left is much stronger but still plenty of soft spots by now you should have a good idea of each player at your table and with pt and pahud using that info and extrapolating your plans before going into a hand. As effective stakcs keep getting shorter the distance a hand goes until all the money gets in obv gets shorter most pots are taken down on the flop if you even see one.

      Stack goal 5500

      Level 7 100/200/25
      Ante time a decent sized ante for an online tourney being 1/8th a bb so most pots are going to be 525 before cards are dealt. there will be plenty of sub 10bb stacks right now and you need to be careful when you open 3x you are getting odds against most players who are under 10bb to call their shove unless they have been really tight. I personally don't like to steal that much at this level as most players expect you too and they also will be stealing as well. So I would suggest restealing more from those multitabling regulars who open in LP when folded to them. Depending on how deep you are shoving and a 3bet are fine. It's also time to start defending your BB more. As most of you should know if it's folded to you in the SB you should be raising/shoving almost any 2 depending on effective stacks. That is the position I feel like I keep my stack afloat the most either restealing from a LP opener or stealing from the BB to get those coveted antes.

      Stack goal 6000

      Level 8 200/400/25

      Alright this is the inflection point/level of a 180 everyone is forced into short stack mode as rarely will 2 people with more than 20bbs collide. There are prob 40-50 left so avg stack is under a M of 7 and also about half the stacks at the table will prob be under 10bbs. Knowing that you should often be shoving when first in even if you have 16bb stack if those to the left of you are under 10. Also remember to go by effective stacks not just yours or theirs. Restealing is harder at this blind level as very few people are deep enough to raise/fold. So expect your shoves to get called more as people are getting more desperate to double even if they have to take the worst of it.

      Stack goal 8000

      Break #2 getting very close to the money now start to figure out whose playing to win and whose playing to cash



      Level 9 300/600/50
      Alright now the field is getting short ITM bubble is approaching and the avg stack is around 15bbs but there probably is a gigantic stack hopefully yours so as with the previous level about half your table is under 10bbs make note of those who are short and why they got short. You should be stealing less from the guys whose short because he was aggressive and got caught stealing and/or make a resteal and got called. While stealing from the guy whose short who has been folding a lot even when folded to him in LP and is def waiting for solid hands to continue with only. Remember at this stage at a 9 handed table theres 1350 in the pot so try to take that down whenever you can where ever you are.

      Stack goal 10000

      Level 10 400/800/50
      As the skill level of the avg 180 player is increasing like it is lately the bubble has been bursting later and later and I've noticed a lot lately this is the level where we get down to 20 people a lot. Remember when this happens your table is now 6-7 handed therefore your opening ranges even from UTG should be much wider. Also, notice that often what you are doing others at the table are trying to do as well so try to knock them down to where they aren't a formidable foe and you can easily call their shoves getting over 2 to 1 therefore they can't push as lightly since they know they have 0 FE. I always try to punish those I fear by attacking them and their stack because the shorter they are the easier/cheaper it is for me to take a shot to knock them out. Hopefully by the end of this level you are top 3 in chips and now down to final 2 tables and ITM.

      stack goal 15000

      Level 11 600/1200 75
      Alright this is a bigger jump than most players realize now the game has truly become pushbotting when effective stacks under 10bb and there are very few flops seen where both players aren't all in. Since often with this level you are just ITM and prob playing 7-8 handed still don't be too aggro and give away chips now that people are in the money they are going to loosen up and go for first more likely than earlier. So tighten up while they loosen up.

      Stack goal 20000

      Level 12 800/1600/75
      Alright this is often the blind level for Ft bubble your table will be 5 handed now with some decent sized stacks prob a few 25k stacks prob a 40k stack and a few 10k stacks. You should be opening any chance you can get unless getting restolen from a lot. You are trying to win these remember 54x the buyin for 1st place so every chance to pickup chips count.

      stack goal 30000

      Alright if you've made it this far hopefully you got some firepower to start working your way to the top. You have 5 min to get your gameplan for FT ready



      Level 13 1000/2000/100
      Notice at this level the blinds are large but the ante is just 1/10th a SB also be wary live and online of the antein relation to the BB it should effect how often you are opening. By now you are at the FT remember this is a constant bubble so abuse the middle stacks at all chances. You are there to win they are there to fight for 2nd. Remember you are most likely the best player at the table you have more weapons than anyone else.

      Stack goal 50000

      Level 14 1500/300/150
      Alright this level I am going to use to give you some ways how to play a shortstack which often endgame you will end up having due to either a bad beat or a call getting proper odds. You should be restealing PF with 11-15bbs with decent hands depending on opener, when 7-10 stop and go is your most deadly weapon. Also when 20bbs you can do whats called a go and go where you raise about 30-40% of your stack PF OOP and stick the rest in on any flop.

      Stack goal 75000

      Level 15 2000/4000/200
      Alright some tourneys are done by this level while others are still 2-3 handed this is where the most crucial point of your ROI comes from. The difference between a 1st and a 2nd is 18x the buyin so you are playing for more than some people realize in the spectrum of the buyin. Be aggressive 90% of the time neither of you have a real hand make him go on his heels whenever you can. Don't get too discouraged if you get this far and don't win because getting here is a goal in it's self and now that you've done it a few times your shorthanded and endgame will be much more solid as I alluded to earlier in the post for when you get to fts of tourneys with 10k+ for first.


      Alright some other things about 180s what can be expected from them. They 180s do give good TLB scores I don't have the link off hand for a calculator it's a favorite on my other comp but I'll edit that in later. Off the top of my head a 4/180 gives 218, a 10 gives 255, and a 20 gives 309.


      ROI numbers are asked a lot of what a good player should be making when I responded to that question 3 months ago my answer was quite different that what it is now because the avg player has improved but they still have many leaks and ways for you to abuse. I'd expect the top 2-3% of players could expect to make about 130% ROI in the 4/180s over a decent sample size. 110% for the 10/180s is what prob the top players could make though I'm sure if a mtt expert got into them they could easily hit 150-200 but thankfully they don't waste their time playing so low. As for 20s I'd say a good number of players are making 100% ROI. Now for a proper sample size I would say 250 at any level but obv the more the better judge even though some of your games may be from a time when they are softer.



      Also, don't just rely in PAHUD if you notice something odd either a line or a betting pattern tell make a note of it so you will have it in the future. Part of the small fields of 180s is you see the same players often so they are prob taking notes on you so you should be doing the same.


      Any other questions more specific comments you have about 180s ask and I will have a mod edit them into the original post. Remember this is a beginners guide to 180s this is just breaking the ice there is much more in depth thought at times during each hand but that is too complex to put into words most of the time.
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