aprox- charts help

    • G1lius
      G1lius
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.10.2007 Posts: 308
      So I tried using this SH-aprox chart from the german forum, but for some reason I can't login on there, but my german is bad anyway so I need a bit of help with some charts.

      mainly chart 3 and 5.
      The numbers are the PFR in 5, and I'm asuming both charts are with just 1 raise in front.
      But from what possition?
      I makes a big difference if villain is MP2 or button afaik.
  • 18 replies
    • henne007
      henne007
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.05.2007 Posts: 2,143
      in chart 1, under every position you have a preflopraise multiplier.
      there for example you see that if someone raises from mp2 you have to multiply his PFR with 0,75 and then you can use chart 3 and 5.
      but i must say that i don't use chart 5 that often, i use the bb vs orc chart a lot more.
    • G1lius
      G1lius
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.10.2007 Posts: 308
      Thanks!

      not that easy to use really...
      I'll prob. stick to the normal charts as well...
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      Use it! Preflop play can not be put in standardized charts. Every situation is different, and you always want to play on equity since it's the best.

      The chart isn't very easy to use, but once you're used to it it works like a charm. And most things are nobrainers, it's just for the marginal situations (3-bet AJo vs TAG from mp2?)

      It only works when you have a decent sample size though. The PFR multiplier can be remembered pretty easily, and when used correctly this chart will give you a decent advantage over the rest of the players :)
    • G1lius
      G1lius
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.10.2007 Posts: 308
      Well... x 1.5 or x 2 seems doable, but x 0.75 is a bit hard to do in time imo...
      But I'll try...

      How many hands should I consider as a 'decent' samplesize?
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      100+, but usually you can spot their tendencies after 50 hands, TAG, LAG or fish.

      0.75 isn't too hard, just guess a bit, like 20 = 15. I don't think you need to use multipliers for fishes that much, like UTG = MP = CO for them.
    • Hawat
      Hawat
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2008 Posts: 237
      As promised, my questions for Yoghi :D
      Please move it to another thread if it's disturbing here.

      (0) What do C,R,Cx,Rx mean? Are C,R open call/raise or call/raise any? Is x the number of players in the hand or the number of bets you can call? What is R0?

      (1) Can you really do 1.3*0.37 while playing? :P

      (2) What do you do with other VP$IP/PFR? (e.g.: 30/5, 80/30, 10/10...)

      (3,5) What are 46%/48%? When should I use each of them?

      (6,7) When should I use them? They say vs. ORC so, can I use them only vs. reasonable players?

      (8) What are the pingk rows? What's the equity shown here?

      (9) Should I open call from UTG2? I'd understood that you can only call from UTG/UTG1.

      General: What do you do with limp+raise or raise+call before you?! (0)?
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      You've got the wrong chart bro :D

      You've got the FR one, download the SH and then look again ;)

      And 1.3*0.37 ~ 0.5, so yes I can :P

      I'll do it from the SH one.

      1; You look at the column where the raise is from, then you look at the SH value, the FR value doesn't have anything to do with it. So openraise MP2 = *0.75, MP = *1 etc.

      2; For the isolation raises it's best to just guess a bit. 30/5 would be a bit tighter than the 40/10. 80/30 you can follow the ORC. This doesn't have to be perfect, just guess abit, theyre guidelines. Mostly your postflop edge is quite big, so raising a bit too loose isn't much of a mistake.

      3; the 46/48% is the amount of equity your hand needs against the opponents range. When he is a TAG you need 46, when he is a LAG you need 48 because they are harder to play against. It's more an explanation of the ranges you see there. Use the multiplier from 1) here.

      4; Speaks for itself :P

      5; the 35, 50, 46 and 48 are again the equities the hands in the chart have against the PFR. BB call (HU) means those values only count when everybody else folded. When you're 3-handed you should be less inclined to call A2, but rather call Q8s.

      6a and 6b; use those charts only against TAGs, usually they're german and have like 23/18ish stats. The 3-bet values are just standard, you can also calculate them. The cap vs 3-bet vs ORC is interesting and can only be used against TAGs, and some LAGs (at least preflop LAGs like 30/22). In the left grey column you check your position. Then you look whether your opponent was MP-SB or BB. Then where the 2 things meet, you can cap that. So MP3 vs CO = 99+ AQs+ AKo.

      7; You probably know this 1 from the silver chart. It shows all the hands you can defend HU, and behind the / the ones which you can 3-bet. This isn't based on raw equity only, but also on how well the hands play postflop.

      8; The pink rows are important values, 4 outs with a gutshot, 8 with OESD, 9 with flushdraw and 14 when you get 50%+ equity. The equities are the equities that you have if you only have those outs. They are counted on the flop. So if you have 67 on a T82r board vs AA you have 4 outs for a gutshot, which is 17% equity. On the turn your equity is roughly halved.
    • Hawat
      Hawat
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2008 Posts: 237
      I've got both of them. They have most of the charts in common but the FR one has charts 0 and 9 instead of 6 and 7.

      Thank you very much for your explanations. I can see why they are called "approximation charts" now. They are more like a guide to calculate your equity rather than to tell you what to do (some of them). I guess I still have to learn more about equity before getting to use them.

      I don't understand 3 yet. Is Nor./LAG your style? If so, you would use the first value of the pair if you play normal and the second one if you play LAG.

      Btw, some examples would be GREAT. About non-trivial situations, not like in the articles. I can post some hands when I start using them, but you'll have to wait some weeks.

      And please, can anybody tell me WHAT TO DO WITH LIMPERS before a raise when using any kind of chart? (3rd or 4th time I ask, sorry. It's going to need its own thread)

      Thank you again.
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      Nor/LAG is the style of the opponent, a LAG is harder to play against so you need more equity. They're not called approximation charts, they're named after the person who made them ^^

      Examples like what?

      50/10 opens on MP3 and you have ATs?

      You should see those limpers as dead money, they won't fold to a raise most of the time, so you can count as if they paid 2 SB already.
    • Hawat
      Hawat
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2008 Posts: 237
      Oops. My apologies to aprox :rolleyes: (Embarrasing. I'll delete my comment if you delete yours :P )

      Then I don't understand 3. Why do you need to know his style when you're using his PFR? How can a TAG/LAG have a PFR of 5 or 45? What does each pair of hands mean?

      10*1=10 => 3-bet with AJ/AQs => Fold (??)
      About the examples. Hands where you have to choose between serveral charts or combine them, hands with several limpers/callers, hands where you can't use the charts, hands where a non-TAG raises, playing from the blinds... I don't know. I'll ask again when I start using them.

      About the limpers. For example with these charts, a player limps from MP2 and a TAG raises from MP3, you are BU. Do you still use (6a)?
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      The LAG is based on postflop play. So somebody with 45PFR can be TAG postflop if he has like 33 WTS and 2.3 AF. Somebody with 5 PFR can be LAG if he has a very high WTS and high AF, even though it doesn't count as much for 5 PFR since the range is very small and you can identify the hand he has easily.

      Assuming TAGs make isoraises I 3-bet them frequently. There is extra dead money in the pot and you have positional advantage aswell. I follow that chart then mostly ye, not if the MP2 limper is like 20/5, but when he is loose preflop you can 3-bet pretty loose aswell since the TAG (assuming he's a good 1) iso-raises him loose.

      Still get it? :P

      Posting examples would be the best, most of it isn't as difficult as you think it is though ;)

      And no I won't edit :D
    • Hawat
      Hawat
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2008 Posts: 237
      Can anybody explain (0)?

      When should it be used? What's the difference between R and R0?
    • Hawat
      Hawat
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2008 Posts: 237
      ...and how do you "guess" with (2) against extreme players (30/5, 92/3, 96/23, 62/0, 77/20...), which btw are the most interesting ones?

      I guess that this is a question about how equity works, rather than how the charts do ;)
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      I dont play FR so I dont know about 0 sorry.

      Ye it's about equity. But players lije 95/20 you can just use the ORC
    • CoreySteel
      CoreySteel
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 3,366
      A revival of a half a year old thread :P

      Let's say MP3 raised, CO cold called and I'm on a BU.
      How "tight" should be my 3bet? I can't use 6a in this situation, right?
    • Amirapuato
      Amirapuato
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.07.2007 Posts: 1,105
      SH?

      It depends a lot on their stats... If there was only MP3 in the pot, you could use (3) or (5) for the 3-bet.

      If CO is a fish, I would 3-bet the same hands. But, if he is a TAG or LAG and you don't have any notes on his coldcall range, I'd assume: T9s, JTs, QTs+

      Just equilated, and you're on the safe side with the charts, no matter if there was coldcaller or not. :)

      For example, assuming MP3 is PS.de TAG (playing by ORC) and CO is TAG (or LAG), coldcalling only T9s, JTs, QTs+, the standard 3-bet range (6a) is: 66+, A9s+, KQs, ATo+, KQo

      Pairs: 88+ is definitely a safe 3-bet, while 77-66 aren't that good

      Suited: A8s+, KJs+ should be safe, but you can even go as low as A3s+, KTs+

      Off suited: ATo+, KQo is definitely the way to go.

      So, the more (good) players in the pot, the less you should be inclined to 3-bet pairs and should rather 3-bet hands with good playability.

      PS. Versus the standard fish who coldcalls a lot of suited crap and most facecards, as well as all the pairs, but who only 3-bets TT+, AJ+, you should stick to the original 3-bet range (in the case mentioned above, you could only add KJs). :)


      Against MP3 TAG, CO FISH:

      80,632,240 games processed in 52 seconds.

      Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
      Player 1: 34.363 % 32.698 % 3.530 % 63.772 % 55+, A6s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KJo+, QJo
      Player 2: 23.987 % 23.028 % 2.117 % 74.855 % 99-22, ATs-A2s, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, ATo-A2o, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o
      Player 3: 41.650 % 39.999 % 3.500 % 56.500 % 66+, A9s+, KJs+, ATo+, KQo


      Against 2 TAGS:

      52,738,362 games processed in 35 seconds.

      Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
      Player 1: 32.523 % 30.683 % 3.816 % 65.500 % 55+, A6s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KJo+, QJo
      Player 2: 26.392 % 25.646 % 1.628 % 72.726 % QTs+, JTs, T9s
      Player 3: 41.085 % 39.580 % 3.146 % 57.273 % 66+, A9s+, KJs+, ATo+, KQo
    • CoreySteel
      CoreySteel
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 3,366
      Thanks for that input Amirpuato.
      I just downloaded Equilator and will try with this calculations myself.
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      You need to remember that you need just more than 100/3 = 33% equity for a 3-bet here.

      If you make a chart for that it would be very nice to have. But that's so much work. ;)

      I usually raise the same hands except hands which only play good HU. That are small A-high hands etc. Maybe a 1 "kicker tighter" with the pairs as you have more outs against you (but at the same time you gain more if you hit a set).