[NL20-NL50] [SH] NL50 KK 4bet pot

    • duder1n0
      duder1n0
      Gold
      Joined: 07.07.2009 Posts: 5,317
      Prima, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players

      SB: $181.17 (362.3 bb)
      BB: $50 (100 bb)
      MP: $110.03 (220.1 bb)
      CO: $28.19 (56.4 bb)
      Hero (BTN): $51.18 (102.4 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BTN with K K
      2 folds, Hero raises to $1.25, SB folds, BB raises to $4, Hero raises to $9.50, BB calls $5.50

      Flop: ($19.25) T T 8 (2 players)
      BB checks, Hero bets $8, BB calls $8

      Turn: ($35.25) 4 (2 players)
      BB checks, Hero bets $12, BB calls $12

      River: ($59.25) 9 (2 players)
      BB bets $20.50 and is all-in, Hero calls $20.50


      BTN played 21/18 after 60 hands, seemed like an average TAG player so far.
      How would you play this postflop? Smaller betsize like me, or bet flop push turn, to avoid overcards wich could scare his QQ/JJ, if he has those.
  • 29 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello pcfmcc02,

      Nah, betting smaller is still fine to get called loose by him. Though I'd really ask if I have much by the river vs his shove. :D He clearly ain't bluffing this way and seems that just wants to avoid you checking behind. :(

      Best Regards.
    • duder1n0
      duder1n0
      Gold
      Joined: 07.07.2009 Posts: 5,317
      Originally posted by veriz
      He clearly ain't bluffing this way and seems that just wants to avoid you checking behind. :(
      Would you think about folding river? Is it possible to find the fold button at all? :)
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by pcfmcc02
      Originally posted by veriz
      He clearly ain't bluffing this way and seems that just wants to avoid you checking behind. :(
      Would you think about folding river? Is it possible to find the fold button at all? :)
      Well, what do we have beat? :D
    • duder1n0
      duder1n0
      Gold
      Joined: 07.07.2009 Posts: 5,317
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by pcfmcc02
      Originally posted by veriz
      He clearly ain't bluffing this way and seems that just wants to avoid you checking behind. :(
      Would you think about folding river? Is it possible to find the fold button at all? :)
      Well, what do we have beat? :D
      Not much, mainly QQ... But I only have to be good ~20% of the time... :)

      Asztal: T:heart: T:club: 8:diamond:  4:spade:  9:club:
             Részesedés   Nyert  Osztozás
      BU         29.55%  27.27%     2.27% { KdKh }
      BB         70.45%  68.18%     2.27% { QQ+, TT-88, ATs }
    • w1z4rd
      w1z4rd
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2009 Posts: 141
      But are you ever good?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by w1z4rd
      But are you ever good?
      Calling river is unexploitable, folding is. Therefore, to fold you need to be extremely sure he has you beat more than the odds you get.

      LE: And if you fold KK you probably never call here which means you bleed money.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Not much, mainly QQ... But I only have to be good ~20% of the time...

      You didn't take into account the combos as JTs/QTs/KTs which are the same way in his calling range as ATs. Sometimes if he is bad enough might even call with ATo cause clearly your 4betting range is super-weak with making such a size. Aka he is able to overplay you very easily.

      QQ gets it in preflop, so you can already discount QQ outs, so he never-ever has here 100% QQ range which makes the equity even worse. Conclusion we don't get the equity and I doubt that we are ever good.

      Calling river is unexploitable, folding is. Therefore, to fold you need to be extremely sure he has you beat more than the odds you get.

      :facepalm:
      1) Don't see how you can ever exploit me if I fold the river cause clearly I could even double-barrel there with something like AK cause I assume you folding a lot of PPs.

      2) It's anon. tables, good luck exploiting people there cause clearly you will never have enough of information for that.

      3) NL50 and exploiting, I doubt so that you will find many players who ever exploit this kind of river Fold or Call. :)

      LE: And if you fold KK you probably never call here which means you bleed money.

      How I am bleeding money if I fold here if I make a fold? I don't invest anything into the pot, aka it's neutral EV for us. By folding you don't lose money. Nor if I don't expect to be ahead here why would I need to call? :coolface:
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by veriz
      LE: And if you fold KK you probably never call here which means you bleed money.

      How I am bleeding money if I fold here if I make a fold? I don't invest anything into the pot, aka it's neutral EV for us. By folding you don't lose money. Nor if I don't expect to be ahead here why would I need to call? :coolface:
      All of the money you put in preflop, flop and turn is dead if you fold to this action with the best hand in your range.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Originally posted by veriz
      LE: And if you fold KK you probably never call here which means you bleed money.

      How I am bleeding money if I fold here if I make a fold? I don't invest anything into the pot, aka it's neutral EV for us. By folding you don't lose money. Nor if I don't expect to be ahead here why would I need to call? :coolface:
      All of the money you put in preflop, flop and turn is dead if you fold to this action with the best hand in your range.
      Which is calculated as we need ~22% equity for break-even call which we don't get. ;)

      And I was really eager to hear about "exploiting", please tell me how you exploiting me if I fold this river.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Originally posted by veriz
      LE: And if you fold KK you probably never call here which means you bleed money.

      How I am bleeding money if I fold here if I make a fold? I don't invest anything into the pot, aka it's neutral EV for us. By folding you don't lose money. Nor if I don't expect to be ahead here why would I need to call? :coolface:
      All of the money you put in preflop, flop and turn is dead if you fold to this action with the best hand in your range.
      Which is calculated as we need ~22% equity for break-even call which we don't get. ;)

      And I was really eager to hear about "exploiting", please tell me how you exploiting me if I fold this river.
      You fold 100% of the hands you get to the river this way so it's not so hard to tell, is it? Donk 100% of the hands I get to the river with, meaning I win the pot about just about any time you don't flop a set, regardless of my hand.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Originally posted by veriz
      LE: And if you fold KK you probably never call here which means you bleed money.

      How I am bleeding money if I fold here if I make a fold? I don't invest anything into the pot, aka it's neutral EV for us. By folding you don't lose money. Nor if I don't expect to be ahead here why would I need to call? :coolface:
      All of the money you put in preflop, flop and turn is dead if you fold to this action with the best hand in your range.
      Which is calculated as we need ~22% equity for break-even call which we don't get. ;)

      And I was really eager to hear about "exploiting", please tell me how you exploiting me if I fold this river.
      You fold 100% of the hands you get to the river this way so it's not so hard to tell, is it? Donk 100% of the hands I get to the river with, meaning I win the pot about just about any time you don't flop a set, regardless of my hand.
      Funny but I cant' really even comment that part cause clearly you ain't thinking at all. Why would I ever fold 100% on the river? Plus if you start to exploit me I start to adjust vs you, so clear is it? Poker isn't only about exploiting but also about correct adjustments.

      Plus quite obvious that I am pretty sure that you would never start bluffing this way in 4bet pots, I'd say even NEVER-EVER! Nor floating in those spots. Hopefully you really misread somehow the hand...
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      What's your calling range on the river if you don't fold 100%?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      What's your calling range on the river if you don't fold 100%?
      That should be that difficult to figure out, shouldn't it? :) Clearly we know we need ~22% to be ahead in those causes to achieve it @ break-even point. So what kind of hands would get it?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      What's your calling range on the river if you don't fold 100%?
      That should be that difficult to figure out, shouldn't it? :) Clearly we know we need ~22% to be ahead in those causes to achieve it @ break-even point. So what kind of hands would get it?
      You tell me. I've been answering your questions quite clearly and all you do is ask rhetorical questions. Go ahead and answer this one don't ask the same thing.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      What's your calling range on the river if you don't fold 100%?
      That should be that difficult to figure out, shouldn't it? :) Clearly we know we need ~22% to be ahead in those causes to achieve it @ break-even point. So what kind of hands would get it?
      You tell me. I've been answering your questions quite clearly and all you do is ask rhetorical questions. Go ahead and answer this one don't ask the same thing.
      Dependent how I see the villain and what kind of dynamics I had with him I start to call-down looser/tighter. Clearly here we can easily call-down with AA cause he may also play his KK that way, aka we are getting the equity. :)
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      What's your calling range on the river if you don't fold 100%?
      That should be that difficult to figure out, shouldn't it? :) Clearly we know we need ~22% to be ahead in those causes to achieve it @ break-even point. So what kind of hands would get it?
      You tell me. I've been answering your questions quite clearly and all you do is ask rhetorical questions. Go ahead and answer this one don't ask the same thing.
      Dependent how I see the villain and what kind of dynamics I had with him I start to call-down looser/tighter. Clearly here we can easily call-down with AA cause he may also play his KK that way, aka we are getting the equity. :)
      QQ gets it in preflop but KK doesn't.. why?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      What's your calling range on the river if you don't fold 100%?
      That should be that difficult to figure out, shouldn't it? :) Clearly we know we need ~22% to be ahead in those causes to achieve it @ break-even point. So what kind of hands would get it?
      You tell me. I've been answering your questions quite clearly and all you do is ask rhetorical questions. Go ahead and answer this one don't ask the same thing.
      Dependent how I see the villain and what kind of dynamics I had with him I start to call-down looser/tighter. Clearly here we can easily call-down with AA cause he may also play his KK that way, aka we are getting the equity. :)
      QQ gets it in preflop but KK doesn't.. why?
      Not that difficult to understand cause clearly he has also a trapping range which plays that way cause of our weak 4bet-size.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      He has a trapping range but he never has a worse hand than KK on the river..

      Why is one clearer than the other?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      He has a trapping range but he never has a worse hand than KK on the river..

      Why is one clearer than the other?
      C'mon really? Read above what is said there about him having how big part of QQ range. I never said he is never-ever going to have it, just that he will not come out with them often enough.

      Shouldn't be that difficult to understand as well that people tend to get it in with QQ rather than with KK/AA. Don't they? QQ is really vulnerable and gets more value from AK, doesn't it? ;) Think a bit mate and wouldn't even have such questions. :)
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