[NL20-NL50] NL25: QQ 3Bet pot set vs donkbets

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Poker Stars $25.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1968124
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      BB: $25.00 - VPIP: 22, PFR: 18, 3B: 11, AF: 6,0, Hands: 68
      UTG: $24.73 - VPIP: 33, PFR: 33, 3B: 0, AF: 1,3, Hands: 6
      MP: $16.39 - VPIP: 24, PFR: 15, 3B: 0, AF: 3,0, Hands: 34
      Hero (CO): $41.03 - VPIP: 21, PFR: 18, 3B: 5, AF: 4,8, Hands: 90087
      BTN: $31.55 - VPIP: 12, PFR: 11, 3B: 6, AF: 12,0, Hands: 247
      SB: $25.15 - VPIP: 16, PFR: 11, 3B: 4, AF: 1,2, Hands: 380

      Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is CO with Q :heart: Q :club:
      UTG raises to $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.85, 3 folds, UTG calls $1.35

      Flop: ($4.05) Q :diamond: A :diamond: 6 :heart: (2 players)
      UTG bets $1.00, Hero raises to $3.50, UTG calls $2.50

      Turn: ($11.05) 3 :club: (2 players)
      UTG bets $2.25, Hero raises to $4.50, UTG calls $2.25

      River: ($20.05) K :heart: (2 players)
      UTG bets $2.00, Hero raises to $31.18, UTG calls $12.88 all in

      Villain is unknown but judging from his postflop line + preflop minraise he is quite likely not all that good to say the least.

      I am not all too sure about my turn sizing. At the time of play I thought that it makes sense to spread my betsizing so that on the river I have a decently sized push but now I sort of dislike this idea because I am just giving too great odds for FDs and combo draws (though not sure how many of them he can have in his range here). Anyway, why not just make a normal sized raise not really caring about how much I will have left on the river?

      So I think I could have raised it to 7.50$ vs his turndonk and then just shove any river. What do you think?
  • 8 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Avatars91,

      Raise the flop bigger and could easily ship the turn. ;) Though as played not much to comment, just could have done it earlier and get the money in right there. He is paying most likely with Ax.

      Best Regards.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Raise the flop bigger and could easily ship the turn.


      That basically means we are overbetting flop+turn, right? Don't we force out his draws (he may not have that many of them in his range though) and sometimes even weak Ax?
    • yougotfelted51
      yougotfelted51
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.02.2010 Posts: 1,276
      if we raise flop to ~$6, and then villain donks out his 1/4 pot again it is an easy/standard jam. we may fold out a lot of fds, however i cannot see Ax hands donk calling flop and then donk folding turn to a jam.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Raise the flop bigger and could easily ship the turn.


      That basically means we are overbetting flop+turn, right? Don't we force out his draws (he may not have that many of them in his range though) and sometimes even weak Ax?
      Why overbetting? Do you know how much is pot size raise? :)
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Why overbetting? Do you know how much is pot size raise?


      Yeah, I miscalculated a bit, but anyway –
      if we raise the flop to $6.00 (a pot-size raise) and villain does not donkbet the turn, he has ~$18.00 left OTT and the pot is $16.00. We basically are overbet-shoving the turn then. And thus:

      1) Are we not creating a bit too much fold equity with a pot-size raise on the flop + an overbet shove on the turn vs weak Ax and draws? Depending on how loose our opponent is calling us down he might not fold his Ax but surely we are not getting any value from draws are we? And our hand is quite strong + has redraws – why not use such sizings that are more inviting?

      His weak Ax should be able to find a fold vs big bets often after all.
    • livethelife7
      livethelife7
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2009 Posts: 1,093
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Why overbetting? Do you know how much is pot size raise?


      Yeah, I miscalculated a bit, but anyway –
      if we raise the flop to $6.00 (a pot-size raise) and villain does not donkbet the turn, he has ~$18.00 left OTT and the pot is $16.00. We basically are overbet-shoving the turn then. And thus:

      1) Are we not creating a bit too much fold equity with a pot-size raise on the flop + an overbet shove on the turn vs weak Ax and draws? Depending on how loose our opponent is calling us down he might not fold his Ax but surely we are not getting any value from draws are we? And our hand is quite strong + has redraws – why not use such sizings that are more inviting?

      His weak Ax should be able to find a fold vs big bets often after all.
      A potsize raise is 7$ (3x1 + 4.05), what leaves us with ~16$ in an 18$ pot:) .

      So we are not overshoving.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      A potsize raise is 7$ (3x1 + 4.05), what leaves us with ~16$ in an 18$ pot .


      :f_eek: I got so used to raising to 2/3 pot in most spots as a default that I actually forgot that there is something as a pot size raise :D That's sad!

      Thanks for the eye-opener!

      Though this still is a question that is relevant to me:

      1) Are we not creating a bit too much fold equity with a pot-size raise on the flop + an overbet shove on the turn vs weak Ax and draws? Depending on how loose our opponent is calling us down he might not fold his Ax but surely we are not getting any value from draws are we? And our hand is quite strong + has redraws – why not use such sizings that are more inviting? His weak Ax should be able to find a fold vs big bets often after all.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      A potsize raise is 7$ (3x1 + 4.05), what leaves us with ~16$ in an 18$ pot .


      :f_eek: I got so used to raising to 2/3 pot in most spots as a default that I actually forgot that there is something as a pot size raise :D That's sad!

      Thanks for the eye-opener!

      Though this still is a question that is relevant to me:

      1) Are we not creating a bit too much fold equity with a pot-size raise on the flop + an overbet shove on the turn vs weak Ax and draws? Depending on how loose our opponent is calling us down he might not fold his Ax but surely we are not getting any value from draws are we? And our hand is quite strong + has redraws – why not use such sizings that are more inviting? His weak Ax should be able to find a fold vs big bets often after all.
      That we are talking about pot size raise doesn't mean that we need to do it. :) We just should do bigger.