Faced preflop 3bet = true - I am loosing lot of money

    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      I have 1167 situations of NL20 when filtering VPIP = true and Faced preflop 3bet = true.

      And over those situations I have lost 500$.

      Probably it is not possible to play profitably, because they often still have not enough bluffs but have strong range. But then what would be normal to loose?
  • 22 replies
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      i dunno, lol



      some more interesting filters though are "called 3bet" and "4bet preflop", also it's more interesting to filter out premium hands because those are ez
    • Stabillo
      Stabillo
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2011 Posts: 63
      where is this graph from ?( ?(
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      checked my fold to 3bet and at NL20 it is 78.7, call vs 3bet is 13.1. So I fold too much. So should start 4bet bluffing more?
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Assuming your standard open is to 3x then you lose 3bb everytime you fold vs a 3bet. Over your sample in $ value should you folded every time you'd lose 700$(losing 20c a pot) Now with your defending you have cut down your loses by 200$( thats included all the times you had your premium hands and stacked them)

      My loss rate when facing a 3bet is -59bb/100 which means i lose 0.59bb per hand when im facing a 3bet instead of losing 3bb should i folded. By the same calculation you are losing -2.1bb per hand when your facing a 3bet which means your doing something wrong. It could be just folding 2 many times or you could be overdefending and getting into tough spots postflop. You might not be 4betting enough(which in turn effects your KK,AA to not get paid off) It could be a bunch of reasons why your losing way to much money in this spot. You should really go into the specific spots to see how your doing instead of just running 1 filter.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      Called preflop 3bet has some loss - 42$ over 153 hands. I revieder those hands where I lost, yeah made some mistakes.

      Filter:
      vpip = true
      faced preflop 3bet = true
      Called preflop 3bet = false
      folded to preflop 3bet = false

      it means its 4bet - 96 hands, winning 130 $

      Over your sample in $ value should you folded every time you'd lose 700$(losing 20c a pot)


      You mean "loosing 60c a pot" I guess - for the readers who could not get this. 1167 * 0.6 = 700.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c
      Called preflop 3bet has some loss - 42$ over 153 hands. I revieder those hands where I lost, yeah made some mistakes.

      Added:
      Called preflop 3bet = false
      folded to preflop 3bet = false

      it means its 4bet - 96 hands, winning 130 $

      Over your sample in $ value should you folded every time you'd lose 700$(losing 20c a pot)


      You mean "loosing 60c a pot" I guess - for the readers who could not get this. 1167 * 0.6 = 700.
      Yeah its 60c(3bb) i misstyped. Add another filter and filter out QQ+AK to see how your 4bet bluffs are doing. Obv your going to win by 4betting if you only do it with AA.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      Add another filter and filter out QQ+AK to see how your 4bet bluffs are doing. Obv your going to win by 4betting if you only do it with AA.


      Filtered. Its 50 hands and the profit is 44$.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c
      Add another filter and filter out QQ+AK to see how your 4bet bluffs are doing. Obv your going to win by 4betting if you only do it with AA.


      Filtered. Its 50 hands and the profit is 44$.
      Well this means that your 4bets are getting a lot of credit since your winning 4.4bb per hand when ever you decide to 4bet bluff. If you would have folded you would lose -3bb per hand so that means your making a whopping 7.4bb everytime you decide to 4bet bluff instead of fold.

      This means you should be 4betting way more since your getting a ton of credit, but also don't go to many crazy since ppl will adapt once your 4bet gets over 3%.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      but also don't go to many crazy since ppl will adapt once your 4bet gets over 3%.


      You mean 4bet range, not 4bet freq, right? $bet freq is higher than 3% already as I calculated.

      But thats interesting info. From the videos they say don't 4bet too much and so on, maybe I am trying too hard to do what they say :)

      Edit: btw I checked 4bet spots where I win and here is:

      AQ vs AK hand allin I sucked out and won almost whole stack :D
      AJ hand vs 2 fish allin preflop - won 24 $ :D
      JJ vs A8 - profit 18 $
    • jules97
      jules97
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2012 Posts: 1,449
      what's the breakdown per position?
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      what's the breakdown per position?


      Filter:
      nl20
      exclude QQ+, AK
      vpip = true
      faced preflop 3bet = true



      BTW if they 3bet too light I start minraiseing from button. And they know that I am not minraiseing with KK so when I start minraise/4bet they might also not give credit.
    • ACi0coiu
      ACi0coiu
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2010 Posts: 3,517
      Start minraising w/ all your range.
      Call IP only with dominating hands vs aggro postflop regs: A8s+, KQ+, KJs. maybe QJs, 88-99
      OOP keep it simply: 4bet/fold or 4bet/jam
      Start calling more postflop with TP hands and give up earlier streets with the weaker part of your range
      Start building a 4bet/call AI range depending of reg/dynamic: AJs+,AQ+, 99+.
    • mkjmkjmkj
      mkjmkjmkj
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 159
      but i think it also depends on how wide you are opening and how often you are getting 3bet. if you are stealing alot and it works it might not be a mistake to lose money when you get 3bet because of the money you win when you steal.

      at the moment i am also trying to look at how to defend against 3bets.
      i hope its fine im using your thread to ask
      i would kind of like to know how wide people are opening and how often they are faced a 3bet.

      i think that would also give an idea on how much to defend

      my avarage RFI from all positions is 26.5

      and on average im facing a 3bet 14.8 percent of the time


      RFI by position----------- faced by 3bet------------average 3bet range facing
      sb 38 ------------------------ 10------------------------------10
      bu 42.6-----------------------15.9--------------------------- 7,95
      co 26.5------------------------17,3----------------------------5,8
      hj 15.5 ----------------------- 14,7----------------------------3,675
      utg 13.1----------------------- 14,5----------------------------2,9


      my fold to 3bet is 67

      if anyone could give something to compare with.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      I see posts are not written anymore, so thanks everybody for usefull info.


      i would kind of like to know how wide people are opening and how often they are faced a 3bet.


      I try if I am not making mistake - to see vpip when I am first in:

      first filter:
      NL20
      unopened



      Now first in and facing 3bet

      filter:
      NL20
      unopened
      facing preflop 3bet = true



      So to know what % is when I face 3bet when I open first in I think I have to calc this way:

      hands when facing / hands total

      SB: 96/2146 its 4%. Hmm something is wrong. How did you get those percentages?
    • mkjmkjmkj
      mkjmkjmkj
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 159
      when you are calculating how often you are facing 3bet you should use how many hands you raised first in which is only 40% of all hands in unopened pot in the small blind so you shoul change the filter to raise first in and then make the calculation.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      Originally posted by mkjmkjmkj
      when you are calculating how often you are facing 3bet you should use how many hands you raised first in which is only 40% of all hands in unopened pot in the small blind so you shoul change the filter to raise first in and then make the calculation.
      I cannot find filter raise first in in HM1. Maybe it does not have this.
    • staktas
      staktas
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2011 Posts: 1,346
      It may be a little OOT but I didn't wanted to create a new thread.

      Is it a leak if I 3 betting 5% and 4betting 10% preflop?
    • mkjmkjmkj
      mkjmkjmkj
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 159
      Originally posted by staktas
      It may be a little OOT but I didn't wanted to create a new thread.

      Is it a leak if I 3 betting 5% and 4betting 10% preflop?
      i dont know i use pokertracker
      but you can also just pfr percentages of the hands in unopened pot and calculate it that way.
      so sb 2146 *0.405
      early 3116 * 0.146
    • mkjmkjmkj
      mkjmkjmkj
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 159
      Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c
      Originally posted by mkjmkjmkj
      when you are calculating how often you are facing 3bet you should use how many hands you raised first in which is only 40% of all hands in unopened pot in the small blind so you shoul change the filter to raise first in and then make the calculation.
      I cannot find filter raise first in in HM1. Maybe it does not have this.

      ups wrong quote

      i dont know i use pokertracker
      but you can also just use the pfr percentages of the hands in unopened pot and calculate it that way.
      so sb 2146 *0.405
      early 3116 * 0.146
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