Full Tilt Poker De-Tracks all PokerStrategy.com Players - Part 2

    • IngridN
      IngridN
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2011 Posts: 12,162
      Hi guys,

      I am forwarding a message to the English Community from Dominik "Korn" Kofert:

      Our recent news release on the de-tracking of all PokerStrategy.com members at Full Tilt Poker and the follow-up news on the changes Full Tilt is making to their incentive scheme has generated a lot of support, but also criticism from the community.

      One of the negative points raised was that our reaction to the Full Tilt Poker de-tracking was different from our reaction to problems with other poker rooms.

      In this statement we will address the criticism.

      PokerStrategy.com's business model is based on receiving advertisement commissions from poker rooms. This is why we can offer our community, education and all other benefits free of charge to the users. This is also the reason why PokerStrategy.com exists and has so far taught online poker to more than 1.6 million real money players.

      The reason for PokerStrategy.com's existence is also its weakness: in order to receive commissions from a poker room, we must enter into an advertisement agreement. Those agreements generally require that we promote the poker room and place restrictions on negative coverage. Thus, when a partnership ends, even if it does so under questionable circumstances, we are often unable to give our public opinion about it and are restricted to taking action behind the scenes.

      The Full Tilt de-tracking situation, however, is different in that the new Full Tilt Poker chose not to be bound by the previous contract with PokerStrategy.com.

      Without such a contract in place we can voice our opinion about Full Tilt's move and transparently inform all affected users about the consequences which this has for them.

      We disagree with Full Tilt’s decision for the following reasons:

      1) We have incurred considerable costs and efforts to generate new players for the old Full Tilt. The new Full Tilt is using the same software, the same brand and the same player database as the old one. We directly contributed to the success that the new Full Tilt will have. That they can do so and generate significant profits from it without us getting any form of compensation is - in our view – unfair, disregarding whether it is legal or not.

      2) 485,000 PokerStrategy.com players are now de-tracked. PokerStrategy.com depends on its players, and we must stand up for them where we legally can. De-tracking means no more poker education for the affected players. It also means lower income for PokerStrategy.com, less profit and less money that PokerStrategy.com can invest into poker education, promotions or marketing. It is a lose-lose situation.

      This is a controversial matter and which we have given our opinion above. We do not expect everybody to agree with us and look forward to a constructive debate.

      Find the old discussion thread and an overview of previously answered questions here.

      Ingrid
  • 48 replies
    • mineriva
      mineriva
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.04.2008 Posts: 913
      I, for one, am kinda stuck in the middle.

      I was looking forward playing on a good volume tracked site and making a go for platinum. On the other hand I can see FTP trying to break away from all the affiliates and give all players the same benefits.

      Lets face it the present model of some players having affiliates and some not is unfair. If FTP makes a good program which is fair accross the board this could be good for the poker economy as a hole.

      Naturally if you one of the players getting better affiliate you could be getting more.
    • mineriva
      mineriva
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.04.2008 Posts: 913
      Oh before I forget...

      The article posted here depicting how bad the FTP program will be only days after the article that we will not be tracked....well it was a bit.... biased.

      Common guys do you realy think we will believe the FTP decision did not change you opinion on them?
    • stevegold87
      stevegold87
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2009 Posts: 2,640
      the truth is,
      when money is involved people become selfish.


      Poker players have their money back, they can careless about your deal with FTP even if it's "fair" or not. In business, it's not about fairness, it's about making money and finding every holes possibles in contracts to make money. I think plobearRNMD summarized the counter argument pretty well. Pokerstars just want the best of the deal, they bough the player database and the best other software out there to have monopoly. There's no point in them keeping affiliates if it's only a losing situation for them, if the tables were turned you would probably do the same thing.

      You guys are now angry about this, while it's understandable you know that there's not much you can do about it, so you should try to stop asking the players to complain to FTp/PS since it won't do anything. Also, posting articles to put full tilt down in a biased way is not a good way to make your point come across.

      I love pokerstartegy since it bought me a lot of things and the community is wonderful, I hope the best for you guys. That said, what I said above is my personal opinion on the situation.

      Edit : After reading my 2nd paragraph I found it a bit harsh, modified it a little. GL
    • Cornie4ever
      Cornie4ever
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 19.04.2009 Posts: 8,225
      Hi guys,

      as Dominik said in his statement, we are naturally bit upset with not being treated fair and our players receiving less value than we would like them to.

      There is a commercial and contractual angle in our position as well, as you can read in Dominik´s statement. I hope the core of our community understands it ;)

      I have just deleted one comment with offensive tone of voice and misleading information, which is against our principles. We will not tolerate offensive posts of basic members with 2 posts who voice their opinion strongly here to create wrong perception of the situation. It looks like registering only to harm PokerStrategy.com. (Please note also that further spaming can lead to being banned from our forums).

      Cheers,
      Pavel
    • ihufa
      ihufa
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      but don't we effectively get a higher rakeback%? the 25% + points instead of 27% - points
    • TwiceT
      TwiceT
      Black
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 4,796
      I followed the German and English threads last days ... what we see is overwhelmingly negative feedback. Without even looking into this specific issue regarding the tracking with FullTiltPoker, it should be the OBVIOUS step to sit back and think about WHY such an enormous (home) user base is actually taking the side OPPOSITE of Pokerstrategy in this debate EVEN THOUGH players lose a little bit of value given the changes.

      Seriously, think about it. After some contemplation it will become clear, that this is only the top of the iceberg. The way how user problems got treated (yes I do understand you have contracts, still) and the way "other issues" got treated in the past, is the reason why you have your own community turning the back against you. If you carefully read all the posts (way more ofc in the German thread) this should become clear to your management imho.

      Here in the English community the comments are waaaay nicer anyway. Mostly because most ppl just don't post, but we get to see the climate on Skype + I assume some just sanction you with inactivity overall and don't care to post their opinion.




      by TwiceT in the old thread, for those of you who didn't read my opinion

      This month's hot topic. Since it's easier to post my opinion only one time, I will do it here:

      We should stick to the facts. Tiltware Inc, RedKings Ltd etc etc etc have been former legal entities which managed the brand FullTiltPoker and all its contracts (like affiliation contracts). There are 2 main forms of mergers and acquisitions. I don't know the deals' details, but we have to assume Rational Entertainment Enterprises Limited (Stars) only bought a few assets and didn't buy all the legal entities aka singular succession. One part of the deal was to pay back player's bankrolls. But it seems like the affiliation contracts haven't been part (and obv for good business reasons we have to assume). FTPnew will save more money not working with affiliates (or under different terms from Q2 2013+) than they gain from it, it's mostly a bigger math example to solve.

      Yes, the brand FullTiltPoker and the software is the same, but nothing else. They could have offered the same affiliation program, or even a new one or - like they do now - none. Seems absolutely legit to me.

      If there is anybody to blame, it's Tiltware Inc, RedKings Ltd and all the other companies involved in this huge mess and all the managers involved! Not the company on the Isle of Man though that just made a strategic investment. Definitely thrilling times for lawyers on both Rational and PStrategy side. I would love to read the term sheets of the initial deal, but I'm afraid nobody is going to show me. For personal benefits as a player, I hope Pokerstrategy finds a little hole in the legal sheets and we get our rake races, points and Rb back - I highly doubt it though. As for Rakeback, isn't that even more complicated since players tracked through Pokerstrategy have a contract with Pokerstrategy regarding the monthly RB payments? This money has never been paid by FTP, but by PS .... So a player cannot claim RB from FTP but only from Pokerstrategy's part of their affiliation commission. But since this commission doesn't get paid anymore, we are fu**ed.

      Ofc it hurts us as players. FTP and PP have always been my main sites. It's likely I will play mostly FTP next months, so I lose all monthly points and all BlackMemberParties Ofc it hurts PokerStrategy since a huge revenue stream is gone. However, what's the point in whining? Mindset anyone? We have to deal with a new situation imo. As far as I am concerned, I have a choice to make. I can get my money back and don't have to play a single hand on their site if I feel treated in an unfair way. Nobody has to play on FTP. Im glad I get my moniez back, but it's not my right to tell this company to give me e.g. 48% flat RB just because it would be nice or 27% just because "it's always been that way". It doesn't matter what has been, it only matters what will be. From reading the news and the forums (english and german) it feels like everyone is just complaining. That's not how winning is done, ask Rocky!! Why are we not looking how to make the very best out of this new situation? Isn't that what a poker school should teach us? Yes we have (all) been put into unfavorable situations ... so what? I'm definitely not wasting my time crying. Everyone should just make the best out of it and keep the complaints low. Especially since we don't know details how it will all develop in the mid-term.

      I really hope Party.Bwin/Zynga/Ipoker will form a strong entity one day. Otherwise Rational Entertainment will control the entire Poker market one day. There are probably worse poker-world-dominators out there (e.g. former FTP board of directors) but a monopoly can never be beneficial for the majority of the market participants.


      The moral of the post: we should look for solutions, not flame! One solution can be to cashout and play on other sites, one can be to just write e-mails to support@ftp and one can be to not play on Stars anymore (as it would also hurt the mother company). Or we just choose to not care and continue playing on FTP since they will offer a pretty good service I assume. Solutions > Problems imo!
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,871
      @ihufa

      In the old days, all affiliate players got 27%. Under the new system, players will get UP TO 25%. The expectation is that low volume players will get less than this amount.

      If you take a look at The Edge loyalty program on Tilt's site, that seems to be confirmed, from my reading.
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Black
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,211
      If the only plan for PS with all these news regarding FTP is just trying to get as many people as possible to NOT play once it relaunches, you're being silly and not really thinking it through.
    • doctorkgb
      doctorkgb
      Gold
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,263
      Originally posted by Shevtshenko
      If the only plan for PS with all these news regarding FTP is just trying to get as many people as possible to NOT play once it relaunches, you're being silly and not really thinking it through.
      +1
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Originally posted by Cornie4ever


      I have just deleted one comment with offensive tone of voice and misleading information, which is against our principles. We will not tolerate offensive posts of basic members with 2 posts who voice their opinion strongly here to create wrong perception of the situation. It looks like registering only to harm PokerStrategy.com. (Please note also that further spaming can lead to being banned from our forums).

      Cheers,
      Pavel
      The post you deleted seemed to be against pokerstrategies argument to me but not really offensive, why ask for opinions if you are going to delete them as soon as they are posted?

      As TT posted, there are lots of chats on skype about this situation, and ps members are now worried that if they give their opinion they may get banned?

      As you all know i'm very pro pokerstrategy and love this site and would not be swayed against it no matter what is posted here, but as soon as you start deleting threads if you dont like the opinion of a member then you are showing a biased side.

      My own opinion is that pokerstrategy has done more than any other affiliate to bring new players to poker and has worked hard to represent its members, if other members feel differently lets see what they have to say!!!

      Roo
    • Cornie4ever
      Cornie4ever
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 19.04.2009 Posts: 8,225
      Hey Roo,

      I fully agree with you. The deleted post comes from member that had 2 posts on the forum, was basic and was around the lines how dominik dares to say such ridiculous things.. Not pretty much in line with principles of politeness to the host (imagine you come to the party and attack the host like this, especially during your first visit.. not even mentioning, we did not get any flowers or bottle first :f_biggrin: ).

      There are multiple strong opinions of our actual members with many posts and we would not dare to delete any of those! :s_cool: So don´t worry.

      Regarding the feedback posted here, sometimes the only thing you can do is to accept the feedback. Thanks everyone for the opinions. Feedback accepted.

      And at the same time, I hope that some of our messages were accepted by our core player base.

      Cheers and let´s stay positive :f_love:

      Pavel
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,321
      Yeah, so it's somewhat disappointing. I think it simply would have been the "polite" and "correct" thing to do to retain previous affiliate agreements. I wouldn't go so far as to say stars were "immoral" for dropping previous affiliations; in reality their decision just makes good business sense - they knew they could get away with it and they were not legally bound to do otherwise.

      It would be nice feel that a big organization like stars only placed a secondary importance on the extra revenue generated compared to customer/affiliate satisfaction and doing the "correct" thing, but I can't say I blame them either.

      I was never tracked through FTP anyway, so this decision doesn't necessarily affect me directly. I will of course have to achieve a certain status to generate the same RB as I had before. I was actually hoping the new full-tilt might let us re-track through whichever affiliate we chose, but I guess that was a pipe dream.

      Actually the main thing that concerns is me is stars' monopoly over the market. We need other poker companies to ensure players still get competitive RB deals and VIP schemes. So while like a lot of people I'm pleased to witness the return of FTP, it's bittersweet.

      Seems like perhaps we have a choice between fishy FTP with the low RB and no-affiliate agreements, or pokerstars with better deals and a higher reg/fish ratio than previously it had before FTP reopens. Wouldn't be surprised to learn this was exactly how it was planned out. You know, by the only poker company out there.......
    • JonikoP
      JonikoP
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 600
      This is all about Stars and PS looking after their business interests. Which in each case is understanable and justified. I think what upsets people is the clearly biased reporting and claims that actions are for the benefit of the players rather than the businesses themselves.
    • Atoks
      Atoks
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 1,395
      I absolutely agree the player's position is being weakend by the fact FTP terminated it's contract with Pokerstrategy. The pull of an organisation versus a single individual will always be greater, that is plain to see.

      The point I was trying to make in the previous thread was that Pokerstrategy's response seemed to be ill prepared, almost hot headed. That isn't the way to win over a majority of those participating in the argument (perhaps for the short-term it is however in the long run it would never prove to be beneficial).

      There are really strong arguments for FTP to keep their contract with Pokerstrategy, especially for us users. However it is again plain to see how much easier it is for the new FTP to shed themselves of those contracts and attempt to put themselves in a better position. Imo this should be accepted and other way should be prepared to re-establish cooperation with FTP. Past contracts will always be there to evaluate in various legal enviroments and that should happen if there is cause for justice to uphold the validity of those contracts. However that should be left to the lawyers and the management of Pokerstrategy should (IMO) focus more energy to attempt building new bridges instead of releasing articles which feel like veiled or even ill prepared attacks on the supposed attempts of FTP to alienate poker players and affiliates.

      I sincerely hope this issue gets sorted out in the short or at least mid term. Because poker players do need organizations that fight for them and support their cause. Poker is a game of skill but I'm sure that doesn't stop the operators dreaming of a day when they could limit the availability of study material to those who want to improve at poker. I hope all parties involved in this issue can find a common ground and work for the benefit of the community. I also firmly believe the vastly bigger part of this community (the players, online forums and other entities that are not directly tied to online poker room operators) should be the ones who are able to go about this maturely with a long term vision and not in way that is basically a hack job of the "new" organization.
    • Korn
      Korn
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.01.2005 Posts: 12,512
      Originally posted by TwiceT
      [...]
      Hi TwiceT,

      thank you for your feedback.

      I think it would have been fairer if you had mentioned at the beginning of your post that you work for a PokerStrategy.com competitor.

      Best regards,
      Dominik
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,950
      Originally posted by Korn
      Originally posted by TwiceT
      [...]
      Hi TwiceT,

      thank you for your feedback.

      I think it would have been fairer if you had mentioned at the beginning of your post that you work for a PokerStrategy.com competitor.

      Best regards,
      Dominik
      I expect that neither of you is at all biassed. :pokerface:
    • Korn
      Korn
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.01.2005 Posts: 12,512
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      I expect that neither of you is at all biassed. :pokerface:
      Hi jbpatzer,

      The mistake that we made in communicating the Full Tilt case was that we did not give enough background information about our situation and viewpoint alongside.

      This lead us to create this statement here statement.

      So yes, in the sense of that statement, one could call us "biased" and it is important that everybody understands this such that the discussion can be about the message and not about the messenger.

      Best regards,
      Dominik
    • klofutaric
      klofutaric
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.02.2010 Posts: 22
      Bad decision from FTP,

      Regards
    • IngridN
      IngridN
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2011 Posts: 12,162
      Originally posted by klofutaric
      Hi guys,

      I just download and put the new FT program on my comp. And when I check cashier option there wasn't any money. My balance is 0. I have FTP points buy no money. I recive 50$ thru PS and I'm certain that I have more then 300 $ on my account and now is empty. So are we all who gain starting capital thru PS left without our earning?

      Regards
      Hello klofutaric,

      Welcome back to the forums. :]

      Your balance should already be visible in the FTP client. Please contact their customer support in order to find out what happened to your remaining free $50 capital and accumulated funds.

      Let me know if any problems with that.
      Ingrid