[NL20-NL50] nl25sh - Qts utg open?

    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      easy open? Close??

      Poker Stars $25.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1976122
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      Hero (UTG): $27.37 - VPIP: 17, PFR: 14, 3B: 6, AF: 3.6, Hands: 526634
      MP: $28.70 - VPIP: 31, PFR: 27, 3B: 24, AF: 7.0, Hands: 157
      CO: $25.00 - VPIP: 19, PFR: 15, 3B: 7, AF: 0.0, Hands: 27
      BTN: $40.64 - VPIP: 18, PFR: 7, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 28
      SB: $25.00 - VPIP: 8, PFR: 4, 3B: 3, AF: 3.0, Hands: 225
      BB: $31.48 - VPIP: 19, PFR: 12, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 26

      Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG with T :spade: Q :spade:
      5 folds
  • 18 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Farmarchist,

      You say it's easy open, why is that? Or why it's close?

      Best Regards.
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Well, when I began to play SH this hand was not in my range but I used a tight openingsrange so I think this hand plays actually good enough to open. Or am I wrong? :D
    • prevolsek
      prevolsek
      Silver
      Joined: 18.02.2009 Posts: 282
      This is pretty loose. The problem is that if you OR from UTG you still have 5 opponents behid you who might 3-bet you, and when they do you have to fold. But on the other hand if you OR from the BU for example you only have 2 opponents behind you, so the chance of a 3bet is much smaller.

      You could argue that your opponents 3-bet range will be tighter since you are OR from UTG, but if you do this often the good opponents will notice this and they will start 3-beting you much more often.

      I would only raise this if my opponents were very tight (low 3-bet and PFR) and there was a big fish in the blinds.
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      This is pretty loose. The problem is that if you OR from UTG you still have 5 opponents behid you who might 3-bet you, and when they do you have to fold.


      Is it so that many people 3bet vs UTG on NL25? You can also see that the only aggro guy is MP. MP won't be that spewy in his position vs UTG.
    • prevolsek
      prevolsek
      Silver
      Joined: 18.02.2009 Posts: 282
      If someone has AA he will 3-bet no matter where you raise from. And this doesn't really imply only to AA. On the other hand you only have 25 hands on 3 opponents and this is too little to know how much they reall 3-bet with.

      Also if you do this a lot from UTG, people will notice this and they will 3-bet you more often.
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Originally posted by prevolsek
      If someone has AA he will 3-bet no matter where you raise from. And this doesn't really imply only to AA. On the other hand you only have 25 hands on 3 opponents and this is too little to know how much they reall 3-bet with.

      Also if you do this a lot from UTG, people will notice this and they will 3-bet you more often.
      Then if someone 3bets we have an easy fold right? :) It won't happen that much.

      If they start to 3bet my UTG range wider, then we can start to 4bet bluff... Though they aren't many very good players on NL25 which wel exploit a UTG range which is a little bit wider.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      Well, when I began to play SH this hand was not in my range but I used a tight openingsrange so I think this hand plays actually good enough to open. Or am I wrong? :D
      And why does it play good enough? :) Do you even understand what's the purpose of the hand? Or just have seen that somebody opens and trying to do the same?
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      Well, when I began to play SH this hand was not in my range but I used a tight openingsrange so I think this hand plays actually good enough to open. Or am I wrong? :D
      And why does it play good enough? :) Do you even understand what's the purpose of the hand? Or just have seen that somebody opens and trying to do the same?
      Connected + Suited :P . Good playability... :)
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      .
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      Well, when I began to play SH this hand was not in my range but I used a tight openingsrange so I think this hand plays actually good enough to open. Or am I wrong? :D
      And why does it play good enough? :) Do you even understand what's the purpose of the hand? Or just have seen that somebody opens and trying to do the same?
      Connected + Suited :P . Good playability... :)
      And from where comes the profit? :) If you are mainly going to get called by dominated hands? :P + playing the hand OOP. Whilst have rather little information, just the information I can read from the stats that you are mainly going to be OOP cause more loose opponents being IP.
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      Well, when I began to play SH this hand was not in my range but I used a tight openingsrange so I think this hand plays actually good enough to open. Or am I wrong? :D
      And why does it play good enough? :) Do you even understand what's the purpose of the hand? Or just have seen that somebody opens and trying to do the same?
      Connected + Suited :P . Good playability... :)
      And from where comes the profit? :) If you are mainly going to get called by dominated hands? :P + playing the hand OOP. Whilst have rather little information, just the information I can read from the stats that you are mainly going to be OOP cause more loose opponents being IP.
      Well only MP is loose and probably he won't be aggro vs UTG or happy to call an openraise in his position. The profit comes also from having a strong range (UTG range) and thus we can CB / Barrel and take the pot down in a lot of cases.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      Well, when I began to play SH this hand was not in my range but I used a tight openingsrange so I think this hand plays actually good enough to open. Or am I wrong? :D
      And why does it play good enough? :) Do you even understand what's the purpose of the hand? Or just have seen that somebody opens and trying to do the same?
      Connected + Suited :P . Good playability... :)
      And from where comes the profit? :) If you are mainly going to get called by dominated hands? :P + playing the hand OOP. Whilst have rather little information, just the information I can read from the stats that you are mainly going to be OOP cause more loose opponents being IP.
      Well only MP is loose and probably he won't be aggro vs UTG or happy to call an openraise in his position. The profit comes also from having a strong range (UTG range) and thus we can CB / Barrel and take the pot down in a lot of cases.
      So this means we can play actually all kind of suited connectors with your logic?
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Hmmm no actually not, though on NL100+ for balancing we should open something like 89s+ UTG right? (Unless loose players have position). I just don't really know, I think it's close and it's important to be good postflop to play these hands profitable, right?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      Hmmm no actually not, though on NL100+ for balancing we should open something like 89s+ UTG right? (Unless loose players have position). I just don't really know, I think it's close and it's important to be good postflop to play these hands profitable, right?
      What would the balancing bring? If you see me opening those hands, how would you abuse me?
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      I just read in an article that we should be tight UTG on the micro's. On higher limits we should widen our UTG range cause otherwise we are really easy to play against/really easy to read. Or range can't be too strong right?

      But aside of the balancing discussion: Isn't QTs strong enough to openraise? I would fold KTs btw cause it's less connected. QTs/TJs is the bottom of my UTG range (in most cases). So do you advise to stop opening QTs or not?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      I just read in an article that we should be tight UTG on the micro's. On higher limits we should widen our UTG range cause otherwise we are really easy to play against/really easy to read. Or range can't be too strong right?

      But aside of the balancing discussion: Isn't QTs strong enough to openraise? I would fold KTs btw cause it's less connected. QTs/TJs is the bottom of my UTG range (in most cases). So do you advise to stop opening QTs or not?
      Still waiting for the part where you going to say how you going to exploit me if you don't see me opening 89s. :D

      Before going to open such hands you should be clearly playing stronger hands for profit and once you do then you are loosening up your range accordingly. QTs is by the way almost the same way dominated as KTs, isn't it? KJ/KQ/AK dominate, QJ/KQ/AQ dominate. So it's not really about either it's QT/KT, isn't it?
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      I just read in an article that we should be tight UTG on the micro's. On higher limits we should widen our UTG range cause otherwise we are really easy to play against/really easy to read. Or range can't be too strong right?

      But aside of the balancing discussion: Isn't QTs strong enough to openraise? I would fold KTs btw cause it's less connected. QTs/TJs is the bottom of my UTG range (in most cases). So do you advise to stop opening QTs or not?
      Still waiting for the part where you going to say how you going to exploit me if you don't see me opening 89s. :D

      Before going to open such hands you should be clearly playing stronger hands for profit and once you do then you are loosening up your range accordingly. QTs is by the way almost the same way dominated as KTs, isn't it? KJ/KQ/AK dominate, QJ/KQ/AQ dominate. So it's not really about either it's QT/KT, isn't it?
      I understand it yes... I think you can exploit guys who open tight UTG by just folding a lot, more then you should normally?

      Yeah there is ofcourse domination... But isn't the initiative also very important? And a UTG range , we can sometimes bluff /barrel on cards which improve our equity etc?

      Or just open these hands when MP/CO/BTN are kinda tight?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      I just read in an article that we should be tight UTG on the micro's. On higher limits we should widen our UTG range cause otherwise we are really easy to play against/really easy to read. Or range can't be too strong right?

      But aside of the balancing discussion: Isn't QTs strong enough to openraise? I would fold KTs btw cause it's less connected. QTs/TJs is the bottom of my UTG range (in most cases). So do you advise to stop opening QTs or not?
      Still waiting for the part where you going to say how you going to exploit me if you don't see me opening 89s. :D

      Before going to open such hands you should be clearly playing stronger hands for profit and once you do then you are loosening up your range accordingly. QTs is by the way almost the same way dominated as KTs, isn't it? KJ/KQ/AK dominate, QJ/KQ/AQ dominate. So it's not really about either it's QT/KT, isn't it?
      I understand it yes... I think you can exploit guys who open tight UTG by just folding a lot, more then you should normally?

      Yeah there is ofcourse domination... But isn't the initiative also very important? And a UTG range , we can sometimes bluff /barrel on cards which improve our equity etc?

      Or just open these hands when MP/CO/BTN are kinda tight?
      By folding a lot? Well, then you ain't exploiting me really cause I also play super-easily vs you whilst I know what you playing against me if you calling tight aka PPs only -> so you rather get exploited.

      Well, first try to play those hands profitable from those positions and then move accordingly the table and opponents we have.