[NL20-NL50] NL25: AT 3Bet OOP

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Poker Stars $25.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1982638
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      CO: $19.76 - VPIP: 58, PFR: 23, 3B: 0, AF: 0,3, Hands: 31
      BTN: $33.03 - VPIP: 23, PFR: 15, 3B: 13, AF: 5,0, Hands: 53
      Hero (SB): $25.70 - VPIP: 21, PFR: 18, 3B: 5, AF: 4,8, Hands: 90087
      BB: $45.48 - VPIP: 24, PFR: 15, 3B: 5, AF: 2,1, Hands: 355
      UTG: $9.65 - VPIP: 29, PFR: 14, 3B: 14, AF: 0,0, Hands: 14
      MP: $25.35 - VPIP: 25, PFR: 16, 3B: 6, AF: 0,8, Hands: 85

      Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with A :spade: T :heart:
      3 folds, BTN raises to $0.75, Hero raises to $2.50, 1 fold, BTN calls $1.75

      Flop: ($5.25) T :club: J :club: 8 :spade: (2 players)
      Hero bets $3.00, BTN raises to $8, Hero folds

      Ought to be standard?
      The plan is to shut down on any club, 7, 9, Q, or K OTT but bet again on any other card.
  • 11 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Avatars91,

      Well, what's the reason for betting again? From what do you get called? There ain't that many worse hands which pay you. Also 2nd barreling very often is rather close cause clearly we ain't doing it for pure value. Whatever he has will have decent equity against us and might even be ahead already.

      Therefore should already ask if the CB is gonna turn our hand into profit in long run? I'd say rather not really unless we assume he is calling 3bets really loose.

      Best Regards.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Check/calling doesn't seem too appealing either vs an unknown guy.

      Can we then just check and likely fold vs any normally sized bet?
      If he checks behind, there are still cards on which we can decide to bet the turn, I suppose. Or we can try to check it down vs a small PP or A high.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Check/calling doesn't seem too appealing either vs an unknown guy.

      Can we then just check and likely fold vs any normally sized bet?
      If he checks behind, there are still cards on which we can decide to bet the turn, I suppose. Or we can try to check it down vs a small PP or A high.
      Why is Check/Calling bad? Do you expect him to 2nd-barrel bluff that often?
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Why is Check/Calling bad? Do you expect him to 2nd-barrel bluff that often?


      I can't really tell whether he could be the kind of a guy who can multibarrel-bluff often as he was rather unknown to me.

      I just dislike check/calling on such a wet board where he very often has decent equity + our hand strength is obvious + he may even multibarrel-bluff and we basically are in a guessing mode when it comes to turnplay since he is unknown etc.

      However, I lack the experience to assess whether or not the average villain at these stakes is usually barreling wide vs PFAs' check/call line on the flop.

      Are they not? If they aren't, then obviously no further discussion is needed and thanks for the advice :)
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Why is Check/Calling bad? Do you expect him to 2nd-barrel bluff that often?


      I can't really tell whether he could be the kind of a guy who can multibarrel-bluff often as he was rather unknown to me.

      I just dislike check/calling on such a wet board where he very often has decent equity + our hand strength is obvious + he may even multibarrel-bluff and we basically are in a guessing mode when it comes to turnplay since he is unknown etc.

      However, I lack the experience to assess whether or not the average villain at these stakes is usually barreling wide vs PFAs' check/call line on the flop.

      Are they not? If they aren't, then obviously no further discussion is needed and thanks for the advice :)
      Well, then explain me why is CBetting better then if you think this board has decent equity against us, if not even ahead of our hand?
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Well, then explain me why is CBetting better then if you think this board has decent equity against us, if not even ahead of our hand?


      I no longer think that Cbetting is better :) I think that check/folding seems like a good approach. Shouldn't be too weak, given that villain should still be able to check behind with a part of his range.
      Check/folding > check/calling vs unknown?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Well, then explain me why is CBetting better then if you think this board has decent equity against us, if not even ahead of our hand?


      I no longer think that Cbetting is better :) I think that check/folding seems like a good approach. Shouldn't be too weak, given that villain should still be able to check behind with a part of his range.
      Check/folding > check/calling vs unknown?
      Well, tell me then why Check/Folding is better? He can easily even take stabs there with worse hands as even with draws. :f_biggrin:
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Well, tell me then why Check/Folding is better? He can easily even take stabs there with worse hands as even with draws.


      He certainly can. But is our hand strength not too apparent? We can basically never have a strong hand on such a board with this line and we can't call multiple streets because there are way too many hands that crush us or has a ton of equity.

      Whereas we can still check and expect frequent checks by weaker pairs.

      Are we not too often check/calling this flop just in order to fold OTT? The hand doesn't seem to play all that well vs any thinking opponent.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Well, tell me then why Check/Folding is better? He can easily even take stabs there with worse hands as even with draws.


      He certainly can. But is our hand strength not too apparent? We can basically never have a strong hand on such a board with this line and we can't call multiple streets because there are way too many hands that crush us or has a ton of equity.

      Whereas we can still check and expect frequent checks by weaker pairs.

      Are we not too often check/calling this flop just in order to fold OTT? The hand doesn't seem to play all that well vs any thinking opponent.
      Why not? Would you really be that safe CBetting even overpairs as QQ/KK/AA here into him and also doing that on the turn? ;)
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Why not? Would you really be that safe CBetting even overpairs as QQ/KK/AA here into him and also doing that on the turn?


      I wouldn't have the feeling that I am far ahead with an overpair if he calls my cBet on this kind of a flop. But I would still most of the times/turn cards just double barrel. Is that not an OK line with QQ-AA even on this flop?
      I thought it was standard. I mean, can we/should we check/call?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Why not? Would you really be that safe CBetting even overpairs as QQ/KK/AA here into him and also doing that on the turn?


      I wouldn't have the feeling that I am far ahead with an overpair if he calls my cBet on this kind of a flop. But I would still most of the times/turn cards just double barrel. Is that not an OK line with QQ-AA even on this flop?
      I thought it was standard. I mean, can we/should we check/call?
      Depends against what kind of player we are against. If we think his range is nitty then we wont really get called from a lot worse as he gets it in preflop with KK+ most likely and even QQ maybe. Therefore he wont have that many bluffing hands in his range and which may be towards Check/Calling the flop instead whilst he ain't bluffing the turn.

      Though standard line to take is Bet yourself & turn for value.