[NL2-NL10] NL10SH J8s 3-barrel fail

    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Poker Stars $10.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      BB: $10.68
      UTG: $9.51
      Hero (MP): $14.06
      CO: $10.00
      BTN: $10.45
      SB: $28.73

      Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is MP with J :heart: 8 :heart:
      1 fold, Hero raises to $0.30, CO calls $0.30, 3 folds

      Flop: ($0.75) 3 :heart: 2 :diamond: T :heart: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.45, CO calls $0.45

      Turn: ($1.65) 6 :club: (2 players)
      Hero bets $1.00, CO calls $1

      River: ($3.65) 3 :spade: (2 players)
      Hero bets $2.00, CO raises to $5.60, Hero folds


      I have 20 hands on villain he's showing something like 16/16 I think. All I am judging from this is that he's not a crazy fish and is going to be somewhere in-between TAG and rock.


      This hand is a result of a target I gave myself to fire a third barrel for once when my draw missed. Maybe I need to "just pot it" on river.


      On afterthought I think I should consider that I might want to fire 3 barrels and adjust my betsizing for the PSR in these spots. It will be a lot more effective to shove as my 3rd barrel to fold out weak TP and draws that missed. Possibly a K or A high board would be better to fire a three barrel on....
  • 7 replies
    • yougotfelted51
      yougotfelted51
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      Joined: 04.02.2010 Posts: 1,276
      flop and turn barrel seem fine, i would be inclined to check/fold river since most of villain's calling range on turn will call river
    • HansTheGreat
      HansTheGreat
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      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 3,807
      Hey DaPhunk,

      What do you think you are representing with a pot size bet? What do you think how does his turn calling range look like? Do you think the turn calling range is gonna fold to such a river with your kinda strange line? Well, the problem is that with a pot size bet or overbet you simply dont rep much besides FHs & 3x(how many do you have them in you MP range?) and your range is at that point is polarized( you wouldnt bet that much with AA) which is much more easier then to call with some 88,99 or weaker Tx. If he calls the turn then this river is one of the best possible cards for him. So I prefer a X/F on such a river card.

      Best regards,
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      I don't really think I can represent much with a potbet after betting so small on turn and flop. I basically bet the amount I would bet with my value range (probably AT, JJ+ FH at loosest vs someone I think of as being Tight/passive, I wait for looser opponents to fire more thinly)


      What do you think about my idea of changing my sizings once in a while? On flop I have a Pot : stack ratio of 12 or so so I guess thats 3 pretty much potbets to get all-in.

      As far as my meta-game plan would go for this I would actually be completely polarised towards draws/missed draws with this sizing plan until I found I got a call or two at which point I would start adding some value hands like sets and AA and probably make draws that I barreled be K or Ahi FD's.



      Almost forgot, what cards on river Would be good for a barrel? AKQ are kind of obvious scarecards and villain knows that too (but I guess they are still scary anyway hence the name), I am betting Jx for value also.
    • HansTheGreat
      HansTheGreat
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      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 3,807
      Well, why would you bluff your stack off in a single raised pot without even knowing much about the opponent? Of course you can make pot size bets on the flop and turn and as well jam the river and your perceived range is gonna look really strong but the question do you have the necessary information that you can comfortably assume that he is gonna laydown a hand like T9 or 99 or whatever? I guess you dont. Also from his perspective if we assume that he is a decent player how the hell is he gonna fold on such a river that didnt change mostly nothing if he called the potsize bet on the turn. Doesnt really make sense because also the draw busted so he his play would have to be something like ''OK! I gonna call 2 streets and hope he X if flush busted''. Sounds a bit like a non sense plan. On the other hand it is NL10 and people mostly look at their cards so this is almost the answer to your regarding scare cards. It depends on what a level he thinks, does he understand ranges, scare cards and other staff. It is too much villian dependent. It is just that with a scare card your play on the river can be more justified against an unknown.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
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      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Woah paragraphs? (Don't want to be rude or anything but it might be a little bit easier to read)

      I misread your first sentence as "Why the hell would you want to bluff your stack off in a single raised pot..." hahaha. I must be a reading fish :f_p:


      Regarding that first point;

      It is because I gave myself a session target of barreling one river with a missed draw as I'm guessing that in order to learn this play I need to practice it and learn what does and doesn't work first hand.

      Why? That would be because I have a river aggression on a sample of 100k SH hands that is 23% overall and as low as 16% on the button. When I face opponents who have stats like this it makes my play on the river incredibly easy as it becomes very obvious what they are betting.


      Second point;

      Part of the reason I was talking about those three pot size bets to make 99 and T9 fold is probably because I noticed players in zoom who just pot it when they hit a set (or other strong hand) So maybe I'm giving too much credit maybe to my opponent for being able to think that. Specially as this isn't zoom.

      I guess I am also being a bit too hopeful that the villain will do what I used to; think "ahh, he's polarised between a bluff and a great hand and I don't want to see the variance. I fold"


      Not sure really what I should do now. How come the "classic" example of barelling a Khi flop with FD seems to be ok but this isn't? Guess I should just wait for more information on villain before doing any of this.
    • HansTheGreat
      HansTheGreat
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      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 3,807
      Originally posted by DaPhunk
      Woah paragraphs? (Don't want to be rude or anything but it might be a little bit easier to read)

      I misread your first sentence as "Why the hell would you want to bluff your stack off in a single raised pot..." hahaha. I must be a reading fish :f_p:
      True I guess. My apologizes!

      Originally posted by DaPhunk
      Regarding that first point;

      It is because I gave myself a session target of barreling one river with a missed draw as I'm guessing that in order to learn this play I need to practice it and learn what does and doesn't work first hand.

      Why? That would be because I have a river aggression on a sample of 100k SH hands that is 23% overall and as low as 16% on the button. When I face opponents who have stats like this it makes my play on the river incredibly easy as it becomes very obvious what they are betting.
      Yeah that is true that practicing and later evaluting your play is gonna make you better but also you have to understand which spot is the right one. This is not like you have push it to the edges just because you wanna achieve a goal. That is not how poker works. If the right spot appears, great otherwise it is also fine. Tomorrow is another day.
      As I said maybe I would like your play more if you have any stronger arguments like a note that says:'' only calls overbets with nuts'' or huge W$SD or such stats that still stand in the defense of your play.


      Originally posted by DaPhunk
      Second point;

      Part of the reason I was talking about those three pot size bets to make 99 and T9 fold is probably because I noticed players in zoom who just pot it when they hit a set (or other strong hand) So maybe I'm giving too much credit maybe to my opponent for being able to think that. Specially as this isn't zoom.


      I guess I am also being a bit too hopeful that the villain will do what I used to; think "ahh, he's polarised between a bluff and a great hand and I don't want to see the variance. I fold"
      About Zoom experiences I cant say much because I dont play any fast poker format. But it could be a reason if you were used to play this ''set-mining poker'' :D
      Well, you just have to know the opponent and then make a conclusion if he is thinking similar to you or not.

      Originally posted by DaPhunk
      Not sure really what I should do now. How come the "classic" example of barelling a Khi flop with FD seems to be ok but this isn't? Guess I should just wait for more information on villain before doing any of this.
      Did get this at all. I mean flop and turn are completely fine it is just the river I dont like that much. Always remember that Kxx(FD) is a way better flop for barreling then a 32T(FD). Also there so many other factors that you have to consider when you start such a plan.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
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      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Right, thanks for the info :) I wrote myself a strategy article on riverbetting/barreling to try and work out what to do : D