Don't you just love runner straights

    • newton15
      newton15
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2008 Posts: 30
      Urgh! This is just sick.

      Titan No-Limit Hold'em, Tournament (Titan HH Converter by Kreatief)

      UTG+2 ($1,877.50) (Hero)
      MP1 ($3,000.00)
      MP2 ($4,425.00)
      MP3 ($3,152.50)
      CO ($7,250.00)
      Button ($2,985.00)
      SB ($870.00)
      BB ($4,710.00)
      UTG ($3,000.00)
      UTG+1 ($6,300.00)

      Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A:heart: , Q:diamond:
      1 folds, UTG+1 calls $300.00, 1 folds, MP2 raises All-In $4,425, MP3 raises All-In $3,152.5, 5 folds,

      Flop: T:spade: , 6:heart: , A:club: ( $8,327.5 )


      Turn: 9:spade: ( $8,327.5 )


      River: 7:spade: ( $8,327.5 )


      Final Pot: $10,205.00

      Other players had KK and 88.
  • 18 replies
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      Originally posted by newton15
      Urgh! This is just sick.

      Titan No-Limit Hold'em, Tournament (Titan HH Converter by Kreatief)

      UTG+2 ($1,877.50) (Hero)
      MP1 ($3,000.00)
      MP2 ($4,425.00)
      MP3 ($3,152.50)
      CO ($7,250.00)
      Button ($2,985.00)
      SB ($870.00)
      BB ($4,710.00)
      UTG ($3,000.00)
      UTG+1 ($6,300.00)

      Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A:heart: , Q:diamond:
      1 folds, UTG+1 calls $300.00, 1 folds, MP2 raises All-In $4,425, MP3 raises All-In $3,152.5, 5 folds,

      Flop: T:spade: , 6:heart: , A:club: ( $8,327.5 )


      Turn: 9:spade: ( $8,327.5 )


      River: 7:spade: ( $8,327.5 )


      Final Pot: $10,205.00

      Other players had KK and 88.
      What exactly is sick - that your "~24% chance to win" hand lost or that opponents "~18% chance to win" hand won this hand?

      Or perhaps your editing in hand history so we dont see what UTG+1 and you did (but judging from total pot, UTG+1 folded and you called)? Only thing that is somewhat close to 'sick' here is your bad play and posting edited hand history imo.

      PS. My apologies for my negative comment about your post and play in case hand history got bugged in converter or something.
    • Velak
      Velak
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 542
      It's more fun when it happens to you.

      I've mentioned this hand on several occasions, but never dug it out of my PT history to post it, so here it is..

      My uber 3.30 big win runner runner runner runner Royal Flush!

      Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
      LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

      UTG+1: $14.55
      UTG+2: $1.80
      MP1: $12.40
      Hero (MP2): $1.65
      CO: $6.85
      BTN: $9.25
      SB: $8.45
      BB: $14.30
      UTG: $13.55

      Pre-Flop: Q:heart: Q:club: dealt to Hero (MP2)
      UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $0.60, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.65 and is All-In, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls $1.05

      Flop: ($3.45) T:club: A:club: K:club: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      Turn: ($3.45) J:club: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      River: ($3.45) 5:heart: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      Results: $3.45 Pot ($0.15 Rake)
      UTG+1 showed 6:heart: 6:club: (a flush, Ace high) and LOST (-$1.65 NET)
      Hero showed Q:heart: Q:club: (a Royal Flush) and WON $3.30 (+$1.65 NET)
    • newton15
      newton15
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2008 Posts: 30
      The converter didn't convert it right, but here you go:

      Dealt to eddiegio [DK SK]
      Dealt to newts15 [HA DQ]
      Dealt to luckyou72 [D8 C8]
      kfcob: Fold
      diclo1: Call $300.00
      newts15: Raise (NF) $1,877.50
      ser8888: Fold
      eddiegio: Allin $4,425.00
      luckyou72: Allin $3,152.50
      keke888: Fold
      gillibilli: Fold
      tvr3333: Fold
      raidden02: Fold
      diclo1: Fold

      But the fact that both the 88 and the KK post flop were drawing to 2 cards each (6 on the river for the 88).

      But then I guess runner beats aren't that bad in some people's eyes.
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      Originally posted by newton15


      But the fact that both the 88 and the KK post flop were drawing to 2 cards each (6 on the river for the 88).

      But then I guess runner beats aren't that bad in some people's eyes.
      Runner runner beats are bad in my eyes too. But this aint bad beat to you, its more of a bad beat to KK guy as he was ~57% favourite preflop. You got lucky on flop as you cought one of 3 obvious outs (aces), other guy got lucky on turn and river. Thats it. Preflop you were already behind. You can call it a bad beat if you got your chips in when you were favourite and lost. This is not the case.

      Imagine situation. You have 22, opponent has AA and you both go all in preflop. Flop is blank, then turn brings 2, river - A. Will you call it a bad beat because your 22 lost to AA? After turn you were huge favourite, right? Well, that aint bad beat because you were already beat when money went in.
    • SoyCD
      SoyCD
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 6,356
      Originally posted by newton15

      But the fact that both the 88 and the KK post flop were drawing to 2 cards each (6 on the river for the 88).

      But then I guess runner beats aren't that bad in some people's eyes.
      Hello newton15,

      It would have been a "runner runner beat" if the money had gone in on the flop. In your example hand the money went in pre-flop - which is the key to calculating whether you got a bad beat or not.

      In this example the player who caught the real "Bad Beat" was the one holding KK. You only had 3 outs you were drawing to (your aces) and happened to hit one of them on the flop - but ended up losing the hand in the end.

      Pre-flop you had 23,5% Equity, KK had 57% equity and 88 had 19,5%



      As a comparision to why this isn't a "bad beat" you can compare a situation where two players go all-in pre-flop one holds 22 and the other one AA. The flop comes 228 and the 22 flops quads. Turn and river are both AA and AA wins. This wouldn't be a 'bad beat' even though he was clear favorite on the flop - since the money went in pre-flop - where he was dominated and only had 2 outs.

      Best regards,
      SoyCD

      (Edit: hehe - Grimzor and me wrote nearly the same post at the same time - we even have a similar example)
    • newton15
      newton15
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2008 Posts: 30
      So had I put my money in after the flop rather than pre-flop, I would have more reason to be annoyed? Or do I just not have a case?

      Oh well, c'est la vie.
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      Originally posted by SoyCD
      (Edit: hehe - Grimzor and me wrote nearly the same post at the same time - we even have a similar example)
      Yeah, my mind reading machine does wonders, doesn't it? (don't bother to answer... i know the answer already :D )
    • SoyCD
      SoyCD
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 6,356
      Originally posted by newton15
      So had I put my money in after the flop rather than pre-flop, I would have more reason to be annoyed? Or do I just not have a case?

      Oh well, c'est la vie.
      If you chance the scenario - yes. Lets say you have a bigger stack and make a standard raise. Both of them just called (so the KK misplays his hand) and the flop comes with the ace. You are now clear favourite. If you push on the flop and both of them still decide to call you flop push - and you end up losing - then its actually a bad beat - since they put in their money while behind.

      The way this hand actually played though - you put in your money while behind.

      :)

      Best regards,
      SoyCD
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      #2 to soy's post.

      Originally posted by SoyCD
      The way this hand actually played though - you put in your money while behind.
      don't let this stop you from playing AQ like this, however! at this stage in the tournament, you have to make moves like these. the hand is well played, but it is not a bad beat (not reallly a cooler either).
    • newton15
      newton15
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2008 Posts: 30
      That's the general way I play AQ when short stacked. If you see another of my posts, I played this hand the same way 99 times out of 100. Shame it's like my poker version of kryptonite.

      Thanks for the input and tutoring anyway guys. Don't know whether it's the skill level of players or the advice from the site, but in the short time I've been on PS, I've made more money from tournaments and ring games than I did on a certain 3D poker site.
    • SoyCD
      SoyCD
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 6,356
      Originally posted by chenny8888
      #2 to soy's post.

      Originally posted by SoyCD
      The way this hand actually played though - you put in your money while behind.
      don't let this stop you from playing AQ like this, however! at this stage in the tournament, you have to make moves like these. the hand is well played, but it is not a bad beat (not reallly a cooler either).
      Ah yes - forgot to mention that.

      The AQ hand was an easy push from that position and certainly the correct move to make :)
    • newton15
      newton15
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2008 Posts: 30
      OK, so surely this one must be bad:

      Titan No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05/$0.10 (Titan HH Converter by Kreatief)

      BB ($10.00)
      MP3 ($11.78)
      CO ($8.05)
      Button ($0.75) (Hero)
      SB ($12.42)

      Preflop: Hero is Button with K:club: , J:heart:
      1 folds, Hero calls $0.30, 2 folds,

      Flop: 6:spade: , J:diamond: , 9:heart: ( $0.45 )
      CO checks, Hero raises All-In $0.45, CO calls $0.45,

      Turn: Q:club: ( $1.35 )


      River: K:spade: ( $1.35 )


      Final Pot: $1.57

      Results:
      Hero has K:club: , J:heart:
      CO has T:spade: , A:heart:
      Outcome: CO wins $1.57

      Now when the money went all in (post-flop), I was 83.4% favourite. Only way of being beat was one of three Aces, running 10s, or a running straight. But I guess someone will criticise this play.
    • SoyCD
      SoyCD
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 6,356
      Hello newton15,

      In the example you posted you do actually describe a runner-runner straight suckout. Regardless of this the hand was not played optimally.

      First off you should re-buy to $2 if you are playing shortstack strategy since as you played with 75 cents you are much too short.

      Second I only see 6 players at the table so I am not sure if it is shorthanded or there are simply people that got up - but SSS can only be played at full-ring tables.

      Third there is some pre-flop action omitted but calling in this spot (pre-flop) is extremely bad. If you call for 30 cents you are committing nearly half of your stack - and are committed to almost any flop. Either push or fold.

      Fourth playing KJ after a raise is not really optimal since you are behind to most of his range (he was in fact slight pre-flop favourite).

      As played pushing the flop is of course a must - and you did in fact get sucked out on - but had you been playing with a real stack / not played KJ like this - it could have been avoided :)

      Best regards and sorry for more criticism but we are simply trying to help!
      SoyCD
    • newton15
      newton15
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2008 Posts: 30
      Yeah, I know I played with a very small stack. I was getting a lot of bad hands and didn't want to risk losing masses with big stacks.

      Oh well, got my revenge and turned my next $1 into $15 :D
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      Originally posted by newton15
      Now when the money went all in (post-flop), I was 83.4% favourite. Only way of being beat was one of three Aces, running 10s, or a running straight. But I guess someone will criticise this play.
      From your text i get impression that you think we criticise your play because of some personal reasons. Believe me, we dont. I personaly want to help you because by helping you i put some ideas on paper (or forum in this case) and get comments too, see what others do in that spot. By that i improve my own game as well.

      Hand converter messed hand a bit again but i take you called preflop raise. I dont think its good play to call raise preflop with KJ. At first KJ seems like a good hand when you start playing poker but in truth its not. You are often dominated after preflop raise and also often facing tough decisions postflop. I would fold it preflop after raise.

      About your newest post - being on small stack just because you lately got bad hands is plain wrong. At least from mathematical perspective. At any moment you have equal chances to get good or bad hand, previous hands doesnt affect it. Do you want to be on extreme short stack when you get your AA? If you are afraid of losing money, you should move down a limit. I find it very important to play in your comfort zone - if you play on way too low limits you dont see value in money and are too loose, make bad calls. If you are afraid to lose money then you will hessitate to bet when it is neccessary to protect your hand and give the right odds to opponents.

      When i was afraid of losing money i tried SNG. Somehow i found it safer to pay once and then play my game :) But thats me, you will find your own game and see whats best for you.
    • newton15
      newton15
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2008 Posts: 30
      Nah, I don't mean people go at me for personal reasons.

      Odd thing I find is, I play better at the higher limits rather than lower limits. I do appreciate what people are saying, but the one thing which really ticks me is that people will always raise when I have a medium strength hand with nothing.

      It's not that I'm afraid of losing money, I just get frustrated when my Kings run into Aces, my Aces get cracked by something ridiculous. I went through a period yesterday where I just couldn't win a hand for love nor money. Although today is a lot better and hopefully my confidence is getting better.

      I guess the whole thing about KJ is to do with EV, right? To me, this was something quite new to me until today really when I managed to get hold of the Silver membership articles.

      It helped, came 70th in a 500 man tournament (only $7 win from a $1 entry with a few rebuys).

      Again, I really appreciate the help and I guess I should apologise for my earlier "outburst" and putting views into wrong perspective.
    • Oly0909
      Oly0909
      Silver
      Joined: 08.06.2008 Posts: 843
      Just wanted to ask is this a good exampe of bad beat?


      Known players:
      Hero:
      $1,70
      CO:
      $2,00
      MP3:
      $2,41
      MP1:
      $10,44
      BB:
      $12,64
      MP2:
      $10,00
      UTG+1:
      $1,95
      SB:
      $1,80
      BU:
      $11,57

      0,05/0,1 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.55 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A:heart: , A:diamond:
      UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to $0,40, 6 folds, BB raises to $2,00, Hero raises to $1,70 (All-In).

      Flop: ($3,75) 5:heart: , 2:heart: , J:spade:
      Turn: ($3,75) 3:club:
      River: ($3,75) 8:spade:


      Final Pot: $3,75

      Results follow (highlight to see):
      Hero shows a pair of aces (Ah Ad)
      BB shows three of a kind, eights (8h 8d)

      BB wins with three of a kind, eights (8h 8d)
    • arjun2001
      arjun2001
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 352
      Here is another one happened today to me, but I have no regrets because I was in the money on other 3 Sit and Go's, which saved me from tilting.

      This is a real runner runner

      PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

      saw flop|saw showdown

      CO (t4245)
      Button (t1500)
      SB (t2335)
      BB (t1355)
      UTG (t1345)
      Hero (t2720)

      Preflop: Hero is MP with J, J.
      UTG calls t100, Hero raises to t300, CO raises to t500, 3 folds, UTG folds, Hero calls t200.

      Flop: (t1250) 9, 2, J (2 players)
      Hero bets t500, CO raises to t1000, Hero raises to t2220, CO calls t1220.

      Turn: (t5690) K (2 players)

      River: (t5690) Q (2 players)

      Final Pot: t5690
      Main Pot: t5690 (t5690), between CO and Hero. > Pot won by CO (t5690).

      Results in white below:
      Hero has Jd Js (three of a kind, jacks).
      CO has 9h Th (straight, king high).
      Outcome: CO wins t5690.