Getting AI preflop with KK is -EV

    • Imimba1
      Imimba1
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.12.2011 Posts: 2,897
      After 30k hands, there was 13 occurence of preflop allins with me having KK. EV: -34,62bb/100h. (nl2)
      people DONT push AI with QQ, JJ , AQ anymore. It's really polarized with AA, AK, KK now.
      I just hate being constantly coolered by AA. People FOLD worse hands, only AA remains in the end.

      Edit: check the graphs later on, it indicates this is true.
      If you have KK, and both you and villain get AI preflop, it's -EV.
  • 44 replies
    • ains21
      ains21
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.06.2011 Posts: 303
      inb4shitstorm
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      O rly?
    • yougotfelted51
      yougotfelted51
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.02.2010 Posts: 1,276
      small sample size, getting in pre with KK is +EV don't you worry
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      If you are going to fold everything but AA when I 5b shove on you, please could let me know your screenname and what times of the day you play? :coolface:
    • Imimba1
      Imimba1
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.12.2011 Posts: 2,897
      5 min ago: again, stacked by AA. I loose money with KK if I put AI preflop. MAYBE it's just me.

      Btw, is limp/shove always AA?

      Just the facts: it's -EV for me to push KK preflop according to HM2 now on Nl5 aswell.
      Over 50k hand samples, I faced AA with KK 9 times, and faced KK with AA only 3 times. It's just so unfair. it feels like many hours or hard work goes out of the window because of one cooler.
      Poker Stars $5.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      CO: $4.16 - VPIP: 64, PFR: 28, 3B: 7, AF: 1,1, Hands: 47
      Hero (BTN): $5.87 - VPIP: 21, PFR: 16, 3B: 4, AF: 2,0, Hands: 50929
      SB: $8.96 - VPIP: 52, PFR: 7, 3B: 0, AF: 1,8, Hands: 29
      BB: $7.70 - VPIP: 55, PFR: 17, 3B: 8, AF: 2,0, Hands: 29
      UTG: $4.80 - VPIP: 22, PFR: 9, 3B: 0, AF: 0,0, Hands: 25

      Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is BTN with K :spade: K :diamond:
      UTG calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.25, SB calls $0.23, 1 fold, UTG raises to $4.80, Hero calls $4.55, 1 fold

      Flop: ($9.90) 9 :heart: 2 :club: 4 :heart: (2 players)

      Turn: ($9.90) 4 :club: (2 players)

      River: ($9.90) T :spade: (2 players)

      Final Pot: $9.90
      Hero shows K :spade: K :diamond:
      UTG shows A :spade: A :club:
      UTG wins $9.49
      (Rake: $0.41)
    • Imimba1
      Imimba1
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.12.2011 Posts: 2,897
      Originally posted by Imimba1
      5 min ago: again, stacked by AA. I loose money with KK if I put AI preflop. MAYBE it's just me.
      Over 50k hand samples, I faced AA with KK 9 times, and faced KK with AA only 3 times. It's just so unfair.

      Btw, is limp/shove always AA?

      Just the facts: it's -EV for me to push KK preflop according to HM2 now on Nl5 aswell.

      Poker Stars $5.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      CO: $4.16 - VPIP: 64, PFR: 28, 3B: 7, AF: 1,1, Hands: 47
      Hero (BTN): $5.87 - VPIP: 21, PFR: 16, 3B: 4, AF: 2,0, Hands: 50929
      SB: $8.96 - VPIP: 52, PFR: 7, 3B: 0, AF: 1,8, Hands: 29
      BB: $7.70 - VPIP: 55, PFR: 17, 3B: 8, AF: 2,0, Hands: 29
      UTG: $4.80 - VPIP: 22, PFR: 9, 3B: 0, AF: 0,0, Hands: 25

      Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is BTN with K :spade: K :diamond:
      UTG calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.25, SB calls $0.23, 1 fold, UTG raises to $4.80, Hero calls $4.55, 1 fold

      Flop: ($9.90) 9 :heart: 2 :club: 4 :heart: (2 players)

      Turn: ($9.90) 4 :club: (2 players)

      River: ($9.90) T :spade: (2 players)

      Final Pot: $9.90
      Hero shows K :spade: K :diamond:
      UTG shows A :spade: A :club:
      UTG wins $9.49
      (Rake: $0.41)
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,511
      Do you count the hands where opponent folds to your shove too?
    • Imimba1
      Imimba1
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.12.2011 Posts: 2,897
      Originally posted by Kyyberi
      Do you count the hands where opponent folds to your shove too?
      No, only when we both go AI.
      We could say, that we can't go AI for VALUE with KK, because it's -Ev if the opponent calls. According to my 50k hand experience.
    • dannywratten
      dannywratten
      Gold
      Joined: 11.05.2010 Posts: 1,462
      No money at NL 5, everyone solid.
    • timukasr
      timukasr
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.05.2007 Posts: 1,820
      Had the same feeling one time, then I stacked KK vs J9o pre and felt better.
    • PokerPPP
      PokerPPP
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2009 Posts: 494
      Instafold in the hand above. I have played a ton on the micro limits and when someone limps from early positions and then shoves on your bet he clearly has AA. I don't think you can see that on higher limits and I believe players on micro limits do it because they are scared that if they raise with the aces everyone could fold and they wouldn't win any money. Just pay attention to the position, bet sizing and history of the player, that's my advice. Hope I helped & good luck !
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Originally posted by Kyyberi
      Do you count the hands where opponent folds to your shove too?
      This. You have to add up the bb you win when someone folds a 4b to your 5b shove, or a 3b to your 4b.
    • Tampaloeres81
      Tampaloeres81
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.03.2009 Posts: 1,416
      Always fold KK pre-flop. Everybody know this.
    • PokerPPP
      PokerPPP
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2009 Posts: 494
      Originally posted by Tampaloeres81
      Always fold KK pre-flop. Everybody know this.
      You, kind Sir, made my day !! :D
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,511
      I love the idea that you shove KK preflop as a bluff.

      Now how about this: when you have KK and villain has AA, stacks go in. But when you have AA and villain has KK, does the stacks go in too? If yes, then it will even out in the long run and you just lose the rake. So stop worrying when you have kings, and stop cheering when you have aces. It's called setup, and as neither player made a mistake, neither will win in the long run in that situation.

      Or you can start folding KK preflop. But don't come asking "why am I losing money?".
    • RasTweet
      RasTweet
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.12.2009 Posts: 4,553
      Hey guys!

      Moved this to the No Limit forums.

      I've had a couple of my KK run into AA. But still it's not a -EV thing to do in general. Keep your head up!

      Lets say someone who plays 5/5 then it might be a good idea to fold the hand since he's only playing AA :D

      Regards

      RasTweet
    • JonikoP
      JonikoP
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 600
      There are times when it is definitely correct to fold KK to a 3-bet/4-bet at the micros.

      Vs tight openers w/ high Fto3bet, it can also be better to flat KK rather than planning to 3-bet/fold.
    • pharcyo
      pharcyo
      Black
      Joined: 18.02.2011 Posts: 51
      Originally posted by Tim64
      If you are going to fold everything but AA when I 5b shove on you, please could let me know your screenname and what times of the day you play? :coolface:
      can't see 5b bluff shoving being profitable at nl2
    • redskwerl
      redskwerl
      Black
      Joined: 03.03.2008 Posts: 3,802
      "polarized"
      "AA, AK, KK"

      lol'd