[NL20-NL50] NL25: AKs call vs min3Bet?

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Poker Stars $25.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1995920
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      Hero (MP): $60.66 - VPIP: 21, PFR: 18, 3B: 5, AF: 4,8, Hands: 90087
      CO: $28.93 - VPIP: 23, PFR: 16, 3B: 2, AF: 1,4, Hands: 201
      BTN: $30.74 - VPIP: 13, PFR: 10, 3B: 12, AF: 3,8, Hands: 136
      SB: $20.58 - VPIP: 45, PFR: 12, 3B: 17, AF: 5,5, Hands: 33
      BB: $25.00 - VPIP: 17, PFR: 14, 3B: 0, AF: 2,0, Hands: 71
      UTG: $2.48 - VPIP: 40, PFR: 15, 3B: 1, AF: 1,0, Hands: 197

      Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is MP with A :diamond: K :diamond:
      UTG calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, SB raises to $2, 3 folds

      Villain: openlimping fish that has 3Bet once before.

      His 3Bet looks very strong because he seems willing to go broke vs the shortstack. But the odds are so great + he still has some sort of a stack to play postflop with + my hand plays well. Could I have not called?
  • 12 replies
    • duder1n0
      duder1n0
      Gold
      Joined: 07.07.2009 Posts: 5,317
      You need 22% to call. Have that even vs KK+, and that's a way too tight range for a fish, who 3bet 17% in 33 hands...

             Equity     Win     Tie
      MP3    23.12%  22.60%   0.52% { AdKd }
      SB     76.88%  76.36%   0.52% { KK+ }
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Sure and it is a valid point.

      However, we have to take into account the fact that there is still some postflop to be played. We may often overplay our top pair or we may often just miss and give up vs, for example, AK that decides to cBet-bluff, etc. etc. Those are factors that are somewhat independent from our equity vs his preflop range, yet they are also important.

      Not that calling his 3Bet is a mistake out of a sudden, but we still have to realize that we can't just look at pure odds/equity vs a preflop range without acknowledging the fact that there is still some postflop play to be expected :)

      and that's a way too tight range for a fish, who 3bet 17% in 33 hands


      33 hands = no sample. Though his range is likely not as tight as KK+, that may be true.
    • Saren113
      Saren113
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2009 Posts: 2,867
      What about 4b? As he only min 3b it's becomes like a regular 3b pot. We got position and villian is going to play straighforward prob. I think it's a 4b fold tho I don't se him 5b light like ever or shoving for that fact.
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      Originally posted by pcfmcc02
      You need 22% to call. Have that even vs KK+, and that's a way too tight range for a fish, who 3bet 17% in 33 hands...

             Equity     Win     Tie
      MP3    23.12%  22.60%   0.52% { AdKd }
      SB     76.88%  76.36%   0.52% { KK+ }
      yeah, doesn't exactly work like that because we aren't guaranteed to see a showdown by calling

      what sucks is that against a KK+ range we are screwed postflop unless it's KKx or AAx :f_biggrin:
      but i don't really think it's just a KK+ range so i call and see what happens
    • duder1n0
      duder1n0
      Gold
      Joined: 07.07.2009 Posts: 5,317
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      However, we have to take into account the fact that there is still some postflop to be played. We may often overplay our top pair or we may often just miss and give up vs, for example, AK that decides to cBet-bluff, etc. etc. Those are factors that are somewhat independent from our equity vs his preflop range, yet they are also important.
      I agree that postflop play could be difficult sometimes, but we are in position against a fish with a premium hand, and have to pay 1$ into a 3,5$ pot. I'm never-ever (ever) folding this. :)

      Originally posted by Avatars91
      and that's a way too tight range for a fish, who 3bet 17% in 33 hands


      33 hands = no sample. Though his range is likely not as tight as KK+, that may be true.
      Yeah, samplesize is small indeed. Then I reverse things a little, what makes you think that a min3bet from a mostly unknown fish is so strong ??
      Because he shows huge strength with his willingness to go broke against a 10bb shortstack? He could easily be willing to go broke with 66, or KJo or idontknowhatwith as well... :)
    • CPallo
      CPallo
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.04.2012 Posts: 4,343
      Hi avatars,

      I'd go for call here. It's only min 3-bet, small sample size and he could easily overplay AJ-type of hand. And you have position, AK is suited... Many things just scream "call".

      Ofc you reevaluate the flop and see what he does.
    • duder1n0
      duder1n0
      Gold
      Joined: 07.07.2009 Posts: 5,317
      Originally posted by Tomaloc
      what sucks is that against a KK+ range we are screwed postflop unless it's KKx or AAx :f_biggrin:
      J:dT:dx ? :f_p:
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      we miss the river 100% of the time though :P
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Avatars91,

      Guess I'd end up still calling and playing the hand postflop. He may still even 3bet there with AJ/AQ or whatsoever holdings. :P Nor he ain't able to ship da money if shorty shoves so we can still call the few cents.

      Best Regards.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Yeah, samplesize is small indeed. Then I reverse things a little, what makes you think that a min3bet from a mostly unknown fish is so strong ?? Because he shows huge strength with his willingness to go broke against a 10bb shortstack? He could easily be willing to go broke with 66, or KJo or idontknowhatwith as well...


      I wouldn't say he is 3Betting monsters only in that spot. I just think that given the fact that there is a shortstack left to act + it is SBvsMP we should be at least a little bit worried :) Though since he does not seem to be all that great a player he may not even notice these kind of things.

      Anyway, I definitely think that while a range that contains 66 or KJo is not theoretically impossible for him to have, it is practically a bit unlikely. But obviously calling is still the way to go, as Veriz has confirmed it.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      What if we have AKo – a hand with much less playability + equity vs the stronger part of his range?

      Still calling for the odds + the possibility of him having a hand that we dominate?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      What if we have AKo – a hand with much less playability + equity vs the stronger part of his range?

      Still calling for the odds + the possibility of him having a hand that we dominate?
      Those are the spots where you base more on the opponent. We could as well 4bet/Fold instead whilst the 3bet is also super-small and allows us to do that. But then again is it a good idea? :D Cause clearly we might get too good odds afterwards and he may ship with something like TT/JJ. He ain't even fully stacked so I might even end up going broke if I have good reason to assume he is doing it loose. So practically same may even apply for AKs.