[NL20-NL50] SH25 FF QTo vs reg small 3bet

    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      PartyGaming - $0.25 NL (6 max) FAST - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      Hero (BTN): $26.12
      SB: $65.51
      BB: $60.94
      UTG: $23.42
      MP: $11.85
      CO: $26.02

      SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

      Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has Q:heart: T:diamond:

      fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.50, fold, BB raises to $1.50, Hero calls $1.00
      not a lot of info, is 4betting better?



      Flop: ($3.10, 2 players) 9:diamond: 5:club: Q:spade:
      BB bets $1.96, Hero calls $1.96

      Turn: ($7.02, 2 players) 4:club:
      BB bets $4.44, Hero...?

      is it worth it vs 2/3 pot bets?
      if call turn, call most rivers?
  • 20 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Tomaloc,

      Yes, rather better for you to just 4bet instead. Cause clearly you seem have no idea of postflop play. :P

      If you calling preflop then what's the purpose of it? For folding TP, donating money into him whilst he could be just barreling loose?

      Best Regards.
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      PartyGaming - $0.25 NL (6 max) FAST - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      Hero (BTN): $26.12
      SB: $65.51
      BB: $60.94
      UTG: $23.42
      MP: $11.85
      CO: $26.02

      SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

      Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has Q:heart: T:diamond:

      fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.50, fold, BB raises to $1.50, Hero calls $1.00

      Flop: ($3.10, 2 players) 9:diamond: 5:club: Q:spade:
      BB bets $1.96, Hero calls $1.96

      Turn: ($7.02, 2 players) 4:club:
      BB bets $4.44, Hero calls 4.44

      River: ($15.90, 2 players) 2:diamond:
      BB bets $9.75, fold


      this felt wrong, or was it? :P

      i don't know if people are 3barrel bluffing all the time :f_biggrin:
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Well yeah, should ask that yourself. :P Seems like you folding a lot of hands to 3rd barrel. :D
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      yeah, i'm not used to super aggro games :P

      i mean, it's just sh25 with fast folding, not sure if it's a good idea to turn into station mode and never fold TP in a 3bet pot? :P
      no one knows anyone, they can't even have bought hands on me :f_biggrin:

      i want to review all the biggest pots eventually but for now i don't have enough sample to tell if it's "standard" for people in this room to be 3barreling these spots with random air hands, still haven't seen it happen but people are folding :P
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Tomaloc
      yeah, i'm not used to super aggro games :P

      i mean, it's just sh25 with fast folding, not sure if it's a good idea to turn into station mode and never fold TP in a 3bet pot? :P
      no one knows anyone, they can't even have bought hands on me :f_biggrin:

      i want to review all the biggest pots eventually but for now i don't have enough sample to tell if it's "standard" for people in this room to be 3barreling these spots with random air hands, still haven't seen it happen but people are folding :P
      Before even coming to postflop play you should always try to understand preflop: what's the purpose of calling there?
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      always a good question :f_biggrin:

      this hand can flop okayish top pairs (bluffcatchers) and straightdraws, but it's harder to bluffcatch when i have no idea how much he barrels ;( , also i can't really flop much on terms of "random equity".
      i suppose that QTs is a much better call, because we flop something that we can float with much more often?


      now for this specific hand, i don't think he should expect me to fold too often on the river... i don't think my range is capped, missed draws are only JT and some random gs, he may also have clubs
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Tomaloc
      always a good question :f_biggrin:

      this hand can flop okayish top pairs (bluffcatchers) and straightdraws, but it's harder to bluffcatch when i have no idea how much he barrels ;( , also i can't really flop much on terms of "random equity".
      i suppose that QTs is a much better call, because we flop something that we can float with much more often?


      now for this specific hand, i don't think he should expect me to fold too often on the river... i don't think my range is capped, missed draws are only JT and some random gs, he may also have clubs
      We are calling cause we expect him to be 3betting loose and also weaker Qx/Tx holdings. Not that we are calling cause oh this hand looks nice. Maybe this hand is hardly dominated by his 3betting range, so what's the purpose of the call? You are almost always dominated and just waste your money postflop.
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      yeah, i also expected that.
      he may have enough of random suited connectors/trash and i dominate enough of Tx, my Qx should be most often dominated though unless he 3bets a lot of Qx blockers.

      in any case, even if i had KQ no dominated hands are ever going to bet 3 streets for value so i'm not too sure on how to proceed regarding that, my understanding is still lacking :f_biggrin:
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Tomaloc
      yeah, i also expected that.
      he may have enough of random suited connectors/trash and i dominate enough of Tx, my Qx should be most often dominated though unless he 3bets a lot of Qx blockers.

      in any case, even if i had KQ no dominated hands are ever going to bet 3 streets for value so i'm not too sure on how to proceed regarding that, my understanding is still lacking :f_biggrin:
      If you not understanding the opponent that much how he proceeds postflop => take 4bet/Fold instead and make his weak range to fold right there than make TP hand to fold postflop. Though you assumed to have him dominated preflop. :P
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      Originally posted by veriz
      If you not understanding the opponent that much how he proceeds postflop => take 4bet/Fold instead and make his weak range to fold right there than make TP hand to fold postflop. Though you assumed to have him dominated preflop. :P
      yeah, but when he 3barrels he is rather polarizing himself, isn't he? doesn't change much if i have KQ in this spot.

      so -> 4bet better, as played he reps narrow, call and find out? is THAT where you wanted to get? :D
      i am way too used to believe people repping narrow ranges from microstakes and zoom :P
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Tomaloc
      Originally posted by veriz
      If you not understanding the opponent that much how he proceeds postflop => take 4bet/Fold instead and make his weak range to fold right there than make TP hand to fold postflop. Though you assumed to have him dominated preflop. :P
      yeah, but when he 3barrels he is rather polarizing himself, isn't he? doesn't change much if i have KQ in this spot.

      so -> 4bet better, as played he reps narrow, call and find out? is THAT where you wanted to get? :D
      i am way too used to believe people repping narrow ranges from microstakes and zoom :P
      Yes, it's much easier for you to play the hand. Cause clearly he 5bets very strong range, everything worse just folds.
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      now something funny i've been seeing a lot :D

      100bb effective, i make it $4 (fine?) and they call oop with a lot of weird holdings like QTs, A3s, 86s type of stuff, guess they think they are getting supergreat odds (i guess they are?) ?(

      i guess i could make it $4.5, but it doesn't seem to me that they should be able to call profitably with these weak holdings out of position. :f_biggrin:
      coaching material? :D
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Tomaloc
      now something funny i've been seeing a lot :D

      100bb effective, i make it $4 (fine?) and they call oop with a lot of weird holdings like QTs, A3s, 86s type of stuff, guess they think they are getting supergreat odds (i guess they are?) ?(

      i guess i could make it $4.5, but it doesn't seem to me that they should be able to call profitably with these weak holdings out of position. :f_biggrin:
      coaching material? :D
      Yeah, that could be a topic. :) Though $4 or $4,5 doubt that there is a huge difference. :D If he really calls so loose then only good for ya. ;) We can abuse him in the future this way.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      If we don't know the opponent, why should we be playing back in the first place?
      Maybe he is not at all 3betting loose. Or maybe he is 5betting a bit looser, expecting to get played back at often. We just won't ever know and such guessing doesn't seem +EV/professional.

      Either way, QT blocks only QQ/AQ/depending on the opponent also TT. Besides, AQ won't play back most likely anyways and sometimes even QQ folds.
      Why not take KQ/KJ/AQ or anything similar that is not good enough for going broke/calling but has a lot more relevant blockers? Looks like much better range-designing vs an unknown.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      If we don't know the opponent, why should we be playing back in the first place?
      Maybe he is not at all 3betting loose. Or maybe he is 5betting a bit looser, expecting to get played back at often. We just won't ever know and such guessing doesn't seem +EV/professional.

      Either way, QT blocks only QQ/AQ/depending on the opponent also TT. Besides, AQ won't play back most likely anyways and sometimes even QQ folds.
      Why not take KQ/KJ/AQ or anything similar that is not good enough for going broke/calling but has a lot more relevant blockers? Looks like much better range-designing vs an unknown.
      Cause at least I'd go for 4bet as if I'd smell something not realistic from his line. His 3bet is kinda weak and I would expect him to do it bigger with strong hands, so I'd abuse it. If he goes into play-back I at least that he is capable of doing that kind of move also with weaker hands aka has a leak in his game.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Cause at least I'd go for 4bet as if I'd smell something not realistic from his line. His 3bet is kinda weak and I would expect him to do it bigger with strong hands, so I'd abuse it. If he goes into play-back I at least that he is capable of doing that kind of move also with weaker hands aka has a leak in his game.


      Can we assume that smaller 3Bets (especially OOP) are usually signs of weakness?
      And if we can, may we automatically even think that when our opponent ends up not folding to our 4bet in such a spot, he likely plays back vs our 4Bets with a weak range as well?

      It doesn't sound impossible, but there is also at least some possibility that he uses such sizing with strong hands as well and thus we can't tell 100% that such a read is correct. It may lead at least sometimes to some incorrect adjustments from our side such as going broke lighter than needed.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Who says you can't fold TP in a 3bet pot? :s_confused:

      I think the preflop call is a bit thin simply because you don't know anything about the opponent. With such hands you are basically bluffcatching to start with both preflop and sometimes postflop. It's also great that sometimes he will check/fold flop or bet flop, check/fold turn thus meaning we don't need to always make a hand postflop to win the pot.

      However, you should be concerned to make a hand often enough to be able to play back based on his aggression. Offsuit hands are usually just bad for making hands so if you are going to start defending against 3bets I'd start with suited hands and expand to more offsuit high cards when I have a better idea of how to win postflop without hitting a lot of equity.

      I prefer to fold preflop given what I know about Fast Fold games. The average unknown doesn't 3bet wide enough or give up postflop often enough for us to profitably defend QTo and when it comes to 4betting it doesn't really block value hands, it probably blocks more bluffs such as Q8s, T7s, etc. It only blocks QQ in his default value range that will 3bet/5bet.

      In this specific hand, as played preflop, it obviously got you in a tough spot. First of all, I disagree that QT is the same as KQ. KQ blocks KK, KQ doesn't lose to his KQ or spazzy QJ.

      Giving him just a value range with only suited QJ since he doesn't always play it this way:


      Board: Q:spade: 5:club: 9:diamond:  4:club:  2:diamond:
             Equity     Win     Tie
      UTG     0.00%   0.00%   0.00% { QhTd }
      UTG+1 100.00% 100.00%   0.00% { QQ+, AQs, KQs, QJs, AQo, KQo }




      Board: Q:spade: 5:club: 9:diamond:  4:club:  2:diamond:
             Equity     Win     Tie
      UTG    19.22%   7.69%  11.53% { KdQh }
      UTG+1  80.78%  69.25%  11.53% { QQ+, AQs, KQs, QJs, AQo, KQo }


      So there is definitely a difference between the 2 hands. Even a 10% equity would be very very significant in a spot.

      I can't say for sure that's his exact barreling value range but what bluffs could he have anyway? Mostly I assume turned flushdraws..


      Board: Q:spade: 5:club: 9:diamond:  4:club:  2:diamond:
             Equity     Win     Tie
      UTG    16.22%  16.22%   0.00% { QhTd }
      UTG+1  83.78%  83.78%   0.00% { QQ+, AQs, KQs, QJs, JTs, AcKc, AcJc, KcJc, AQo, KQo }


      It is just a clear IT DEPENDS spot. If you don't know anything about you opponent your probably shouldn't call preflop. If you do think QT can win often when you don't hit either the next step is to think about what are your best hands here? I assume you have 99 preflop if you have QT. Do you have Q9s? KQo and KQs should also be in your range. Basically, if you are somewhat unsure and think you have to bluffcatch, do it with the top of your bluff catching range here which would be Q9s, KQ and you can definitely show up with 99 here as well to strengthen your range and get more money from him value betting too thinly.


      Board: Q:spade: 5:club: 9:diamond:  4:club:  2:diamond:
             Equity     Win     Tie
      UTG    36.33%  27.23%   9.10% { KdQh }
      UTG+1  63.67%  54.56%   9.10% { QQ+, AQs, KQs, QJs, JTs, AcKc, AcJc, KcJc, AQo, KQo }
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      thank you kind sirs

      on preflop -> this hand is ugly, but his sizing :f_cry: it's still almost too cute to fold :f_frown:
      that is why i want to 4bet, when he calls postflop ugly spots will happen like 95% of the time though.

      this is how regs on party play back at you with trash oop though:

      PartyGaming - $0.25 NL (6 max) FAST - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      Hero (BTN): $25.00
      SB: $70.25
      BB: $33.30
      UTG: $58.60
      MP: $25.00
      CO: $33.90

      SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

      Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has 4:diamond: K:club:

      fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.50, fold, BB raises to $1.50, Hero raises to $4.00, BB calls $2.50

      Flop: ($8.10, 2 players) 2:spade: 2:diamond: J:diamond:
      BB checks, Hero bets $3.00, BB calls $3.00

      Turn: ($14.10, 2 players) 3:club:
      BB checks, Hero checks

      River: ($14.10, 2 players) 6:spade:
      BB checks, Hero checks

      BB shows Q:spade: T:spade: (One Pair, Twos) (Pre 48%, Flop 31%, Turn 14%)
      Hero shows 4:diamond: K:club: (One Pair, Twos) (Pre 52%, Flop 69%, Turn 86%)
      Hero wins $13.40


      :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin:


      on postflop -> i like the points, but i don't think he plays any QJ like this ever unless he's crazy or really good... or really bad.

      i don't mean that because of his 3barrels, but rather because of his sizings and because people mostly don't vbet thinly like that.
      surely with QJ he should figure that there isn't a lot that he beats otr -> bet smaller or just c/f or something.

      still i like the idea of calling with KQ, also yeah i definitely have all 99 and 55 which also plays this way.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Heh, QTs is not that suprising 3betting and calling a 4bet. Your hand is not that good either! :f_biggrin:

      They also seem passive so I think QT is a fold and would draw the line at calling with KQ and better. After you do it once and learn about his range you can adjust if necessary. I definitely agree with your QJ comments which is why I only included QJs and can probably go with even fewer combos of that.
    • 1
    • 2