[NL20-NL50] NL25: TT donkbet Q high 3wayflop

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Party Poker $25 No Limit Hold'em - 3 players - View hand 1998680
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      SB: $18.87
      Hero (BB): $25.35
      BTN: $30.83

      Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with T :spade: T :heart:
      BTN raises to $0.75, SB calls $0.65, Hero calls $0.50

      Flop: ($2.25) 2 :spade: 4 :diamond: Q :diamond: (3 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $1.42, BTN calls $1.42, SB calls $1.42

      Turn: ($6.51) 3 :heart: (3 players)
      SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $3.50, SB calls $3.50, Hero folds

      River: ($13.51) J :diamond: (2 players)
      SB checks, BTN bets $5.50, SB calls $5.50

      BU: unknown
      SB: looks fishy

      Preflop: could have 3Bet for value, I guess
      Postflop: an OK donkbet on the flop since there is a fishy guy in the pot as well?
      Not sure I can check/call all that profitably vs the PFA's cBetting range here.
  • 11 replies
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      I don't mind the donk bet for isolation/thin value versus SB. Since we don't know anything about button we can really expect him to cbet vs 2 ppl here (although he still has position). Ck/calling might be an option but it's not that great, especially if SB calls as well, so I prefer our line.

      Once we get called BTN has a somewhat decent range. I doubt he would float you there (with fish behind).

      If only SB calls I'd bet turn as well and check back river.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Avatars91,

      Preflop: Against most likely wide BTN range + fishy opponent on SB we have an easy squeeze for value even here. :P

      As played
      Postflop: Donking is totally fine there, though you should be asking what to do on the turn? As the BTN actually could be also having draws/worse PPs I'd just Bet the turn myself and do it for free showdown mainly. If we Check then it's a Fold vs a Bet.

      Best Regards.
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Don't you think it's a bit too loose to bet the turn 3way? HU I agree that it's def a bet but 3way I think one of them has a Q too much of the time. Let's say the BTN has 99 and SB 88 it will go check/check most of the time anyway
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Hey Avartars,

      I would definitely 3bet pre flop.

      The button should be opening an extremely wide range, when the SB flats he has a very weak range and also a range that consists of a lot of pocket pairs, Ax hands and suited connectors that we dominate so its a clear 3bet for value. Because it looks like a steal we can induce 4bet bluffs and be happy about 5betting all in. 1010 would probably be the worst hand I would do it with though.

      Flop donkbet is ok, I don't think that button continues super wide as the SB is still left the act and Qx is a decent part of both your ranges. As played on the turn I would completely shut down once the SB overcalls.

      @Farmarchist - I think betting the turn is pretty bad and will definitely not show a profit. If HU I would be more inclined to agree as he likely floats Ax and pocket pairs that we beat and will call again, but 3 way it would be a big leak to barrel again I think.
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Wow you corrected Veriz :P . Pretty impressed :f_love: Wish you had more time and got money for this =)
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Because it looks like a steal we can induce 4bet bluffs and be happy about 5betting all in. 1010 would probably be the worst hand I would do it with though.


      I personally would be rather careful about doing it vs an unknown with no history on these limits. I mean, it is so opponent dependent, and do we really want to make such guess-plays? 1 guy sees our play as possibly weak and 4Bets wide. Another sees it as possibly weak and flats wide while 4Betting a stron range because of his position + the possibility of the weak SB joining in as well.

      Sounds like a possible standard on higher limits, but looks a bit borderline on NL25. Especially since we're OOP where our squeezing range may typically be seen as possibly stronger + where our opponent has the positional advantage, which enables him to flat with a wider range instead of 4Betting, thus decreasing this pos. advantage.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Hey,

      Like I said I wouldn't go gung ho and start by 5bet shoving 96s and that TT (which is a good hand!) would be the bottom of my range here.

      It was more to say that I would advise against 3bet/folding here, but it would be fine to 3bet fold a hand such as KQ that we raised for value initially but then when called all in we have considerable worst equity.

      Anyway the main parts here are flop/turn I think.

      Did you agree with my lines in the thread or think we should continue to bet turn?
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      I agree with your postflop evaluation.

      I just am not sure I can agree with getting it in with TT in that spot.

      I assume that you assume that our 5bet is getting called at least by something like QQ+, AK, right?

      In that case, where does our EV come from if our equity vs such a calling range is 36.4%? Certainly a part of it must come from fold equity, which can't be gained if he is 4Betting a very narrow range.

      Do we have FE? Is he 4Betting wide? Can we tell for sure?

      I mean, in that case we might as well just take any PP and 3Bet/shove vs him. And that doesn't sound all that right.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Hey,

      It also depends on your game plan. Generally you should be playing very aggressive 3 handed and running your opponents over. If you have such a high 3bet range and playing vs somebody competent then they are bound to start 4bet bluffing. In a normal 6max game I would agree for sure, but in a 3 handed game the dynamics are alot more aggressive and we should be 3bet bluffing alot meaning that 1010 will likely be a shove here. Also 1010 does play better vs AK than 22 :)

      Also we need to have a balanced jamming range here, not in terms of equal amount of bluffs, but we don't want to just 5bet shove a 18% range or something stupid. AK+ TT+ is still decently tight :)
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Quite reasonable thoughts. But are we expecting them to be competent as a default on NL25 here? We know nothing about then at the moment and there certainly are some guys who don't really 4Bet bluff vs me in that spot a lot, if at all.

      I mean, is it like this: I 3bet, one of them 4Bets and I say to myself: "well, there is a decent chance that they understand that my range here contains quite a few bluffs/hands that I am not going broke with, thus I am likely to get 4bet wide here and since TT is a decent hand to push even vs people who don't 4Betbluff extremely wide, I'm going broke"?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Well, SB doesn't have a hand better than JJ and that JJ is also very rare. He would 3bet vs BU with anything better/premium. That means vs him 4betting preflop you have the nuts.

      Now, vs BU You don't need him to 4bet bluff that often actually. Your TT will have 34% equity vs JJ+ and AK. Not awesome but it means you don't need him to fold as often as when you'd have Axs for example.

      It's quite important to be aware of your own image though. If you had a complete nit image, of course you won't get a bluff 4bet here. If you look like a 'standard' reg I think it's OK to 3bet/5bet TT here vs BU and a SB flat because you should be 3betting quite a wide range in this situation that will simply force BU to play back with worse. If he doesn't you already print money from the times he folds. Remember this is towards if not the bottom of your range for 3bet/5bet without more aggressive dynamics so if you consider your range vs his for stacking off, you probably don't lose money when you get it in but you make money from the times he folds or calls preflop given your wide range.