[NL20-NL50] NL25: AKo no cBet in 3B pot

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Party Poker $25 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 1999760
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      BB: $30.88
      UTG: $44.87
      CO: $25.00
      BTN: $26.07
      Hero (SB): $26.44

      Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with K :club: A :heart:
      UTG raises to $0.75, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.50, 1 fold, UTG calls $1.75

      Flop: ($5.25) 3 :heart: 6 :heart: 4 :spade: (2 players)
      Hero checks, UTG checks

      Turn: ($5.25) T :spade: (2 players)
      Hero checks, UTG bets $2.85, Hero folds

      Opponent: a reg that we know little about.

      Just wanted to know if you would agree with check/folding on this flop vs an unknown even with the backdoor nut FD. If I knew that he calls my 3Bets in that spot with a wide range and/or gives up on the flop or turn often, it would be different. But on such a board I may be even called down by smaller/medium PPs.

      It's just that lately I find myself spewing away too much money by cBetting such flops and second barreling most turns.
  • 5 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Avatars91,

      Preflop: What's the reason for 3betting in first place here? If we assume he calls wide then lets go to flop =

      As played
      Postflop: You say he calls wide range, then ain't this one of the best boards to CB? We assume he has wide range so we may also even be ahead with our hand + have backdoors + overcards.

      Best Regards.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Preflop: What's the reason for 3betting in first place here? If we assume he calls wide then lets go to flop =


      I actually did it as a semi-bluff vs an unknown opponent. Thought that playing it OOP would be worse. I mean, where does our EV lie in cold calling? VS an unknown we are basically check/folding on any flops that we miss and we are not even getting paid super-huge or super-often if we hit our TPTK because villain will often just sit there with a medium pair taking pot-control.
      Will those times when we dominate him and hit our TPTK even compensate for all the losses that occur when we miss/are not getting paid much?

      Or do we set up such a gameplan that we have some sort of a check/raising range postflop that allows us to check/raise TPTK for value even vs UTG in order to get paid?

      Postflop: You say he calls wide range, then ain't this one of the best boards to CB? We assume he has wide range so we may also even be ahead with our hand + have backdoors + overcards.


      If his range was wide and thus I would have 3Bet for value + cBet this good flop, would you, without any additional knowledge, recommend 2nd barreling on basically any turn card?

      I mean, once I get called on this flop, can I expect to have a ton of fold equity vs his range on the turn? Most PPs wouldn't fold on most turns, I think. Maybe some weak ones. And I'm not sure I'm getting floated by overcards a lot here.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Preflop 3bet looks really straight forward to me. I almost never cold call in SB though so I'm not considering NOT 3betting AK here almost ever.

      Once you get called I disagree that the flop is good for you and bad for your opponent. Let's think of his range for a bit. Pocket pairs never fold here, flushdraws never fold (some high suited connectors still in his range imo). What he does fold is air... we still like that but how much air does he have compared to non-air hands. Does he fold backdoor draws or does he consider them as a 'hitting the flop' situation? It gets close imo..

      Let's look at our hand and range now. Preflop people put you on AK 90% of the time if they are fishy and not as often if they are good. However, what hands do you hit this board with? Flushdraws and overpairs usually. Your hand is 2 overs which are usually good, especially the K. The Ace can be reverse domniated here sometimes already and that sucks. You have the BD NFD as some extra equity but being OOP will you ever realize that equity? Quite unlikely because there are no turn cards that really give you huge folding equity. Anything that gives you equity gives your opponent as well or he has enough equity starting from the flop to not fold turns. Now you get into a spot where cbetting once might be good (he folds his air often enough and we turned TPTK enough times to make it +EV) or he doesn't fold flop and very unlikely folds turns.

      If he doesn't fold flop often and doesn't (shouldn't based on his range anyway) fold turns, we have to consider if we want to bet none, 1 or 3 streets. We bet 1 and done when he just folds often enough to our cbet and we decide between none or 3 when we know how to correctly barrel. When I say none or 3 I don't mean 100% of the time you bet 3 streets because there will be some unfavourable developments on which you do give up your second bullet or 3rd but they should happen very rarely.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Those are some reasonable thoughts.

      But if we theoretically knew that he is calling us wide preflop (suited broadways, AJs+, AQo+, 22-QQ) but we knew nothing about his folding tendencies postflop, what is the best guess we can make regarding his flop calling/folding frequency?
      Couldn't such a guy still float us not only with all/most PPs but with overcards as well? We should be able to fold out at least the non-pair floats on the turn and quite often the weak pair ones as well. Whereas if we get called the 2nd time, 3barreling seems like spew vs unknowns/with little understanding of 3barrelbluffs on these limits.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Once you get called on the flop though he doesn't have all the preflop stuff that flopped close to nothing. That means his value/air ratio is more balanced so you simply won't exploit him if you barrel the wrong range. He doesn't think of it this way but that's what happens really. The more you go towards showdown the more honest play is going to be and you will encounter stronger ranges.

      LE: Cbetting once can still be an option but I think betting exactly 2 streets as a default is just dead money.