Resteal from blinds ranges

    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Hey guys,

      I sit on the tables with either 30bb stack or 50bb stack on NL100 tables.

      I am trying to define my optimal rst ranges from big blind vs BU.

      BU opens to 2bb and I 3B to 6bb.

      What would a SSS/MSS advocate as a 3B range and what range should I call with if BU shoves over my 3B? BU is unknown for now and is opening a 50% range.

      Thanks
  • 16 replies
    • ctstc
      ctstc
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2009 Posts: 6,280
      Hi,
      You can't create such ranges as a default. Especially in the Blinds all players are different and you have to calculate the perfect ranges for each of them new.

      Your way is to give him a Range (with Stats), and define your 3bet Range. After that you look, what he will fold and what is in his 4bet range.
      Then you calculate your equity and all hands which have this or a higher equity you can call.
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Originally posted by ctstc
      Your way is to give him a Range (with Stats), and define your 3bet Range.
      BU opens 2bb. h general steal stats (i.e not vs SSer):
      He steals 54%
      Folds to resteal: 54%
      Cals vs resteal: 36%
      4B vs resteal: 11%

      How do I construct my 3B range or even before I construct my range how do I define what % should I 3B?

      Originally posted by ctstc
      After that you look, what he will fold and what is in his 4bet range.
      Then you calculate your equity and all hands which have this or a higher equity you can call.
      Yeah that makes sense. However it is hard to know how BSSer play vs SSer i.e define his shoving range. I guess from my 3B range I can calculate how much I should call his 4B so that he doesn't have a profitable shove with any 2.
    • ctstc
      ctstc
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2009 Posts: 6,280
      Do you know the EV formula for a 3bet/call spot?

      I would create a +EV 3bet/call Range with it and add some bluff combinations.
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      What I was trying to get is a starting point for the 3B range then I will adjust it and do all the calcs.

      For example in BSS I know the average rst % would be ~11-14% BB vs BU.

      Does 18% rst seem reasonable to you?
    • ctstc
      ctstc
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2009 Posts: 6,280
      15-18% can be realistc I think. But that also depends to the site you play, but you can calculate with it as a start of course,
    • Tampaloeres81
      Tampaloeres81
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.03.2009 Posts: 1,416
      Originally posted by Dublimax
      What I was trying to get is a starting point for the 3B range then I will adjust it and do all the calcs.

      For example in BSS I know the average rst % would be ~11-14% BB vs BU.

      Does 18% rst seem reasonable to you?
      Do you have HEM?
      You can search through your database and filter on MSS or BSS players by stack sizes to get the avg rst range. That should be a fine start imo ;)

      T.
    • ctstc
      ctstc
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2009 Posts: 6,280
      I have PT4.
      But what are you playing exactly? MSS FR, MSS SH?
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Originally posted by ctstc
      Do you know the EV formula for a 3bet/call spot?

      I would create a +EV 3bet/call Range with it and add some bluff combinations.
      interesting....
      can i see an example?
    • ctstc
      ctstc
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2009 Posts: 6,280
      Originally posted by patszerdonk
      Originally posted by ctstc
      Do you know the EV formula for a 3bet/call spot?

      I would create a +EV 3bet/call Range with it and add some bluff combinations.
      interesting....
      can i see an example?
      Example for what exactly?
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      I meant can you give us an example how to construct "3bet range" / " call range" vs steal?

      How we take into account our position disadvantage?
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      For 3betting a good guideline is to 3bet 25% of someone's opening range. So if UTG opens 16% you 3bet with a 4% range, 60% BU range should be countered with a 15% 3bet range, 100% SB HU opening range should be met with a 25% 3bet range etc.

      As for 3bet range composition, I would argue that your bluff/total ratio should be the same as the opponent's fold to 3b ratio. If someone never folds to 3bets, you should use a pure value range, if someone always folds, you should never 3bet premiums. If someone folds 50%, you use 50/50 value:bluff ratio.

      For calling you compare the pot odds you are getting on a call, and then stove your equity vs the villain's opening range. Obviously you don't get to realize your equity all the time so you need to discount the "realizable equity" by X% (I don't have a precise figure for you), if you are OOP. Initiative is also important but becomes less important as players become better because the caller knows how to float and bluff raise wider, and also balance calling ranges with some slowplays, and hero call.
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      @ tampa: yeah that's a good idea.
      @ ctstc: I'm playing BSS SH but I want to understand SSS too
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Originally posted by mbml
      For 3betting a good guideline is to 3bet 25% of someone's opening range. So if UTG opens 16% you 3bet with a 4% range, 60% BU range should be countered with a 15% 3bet range, 100% SB HU opening range should be met with a 25% 3bet range etc.

      As for 3bet range composition, I would argue that your bluff/total ratio should be the same as the opponent's fold to 3b ratio. If someone never folds to 3bets, you should use a pure value range, if someone always folds, you should never 3bet premiums. If someone folds 50%, you use 50/50 value:bluff ratio.

      For calling you compare the pot odds you are getting on a call, and then stove your equity vs the villain's opening range. Obviously you don't get to realize your equity all the time so you need to discount the "realizable equity" by X% (I don't have a precise figure for you), if you are OOP. Initiative is also important but becomes less important as players become better because the caller knows how to float and bluff raise wider, and also balance calling ranges with some slowplays, and hero call.
      Hey mbml,
      Not sure you noticed that it is SSS section :)

      The difference with SSer is that because of their stack size they will get away with a higher 3B ranges since villain can't 4B bluffs (obviously you know that but that's just for the sake of the thread).

      So basically I am trying to define my shoving range as BU vs a SSSer resteal depending on their 3B ranges and stack size.
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Thank you mbml for you aswer here (and on other thread)!!! I think I got the idea. I'll work around.

      @dublimax: sorry I didn't notice it's SS discussion thread.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      yea i noticed. I don't think there's much of a difference though. Concepts are the same. The thing which changes is the FT3B stat, I think at lower limits SSers aren't too comfortable calling wide vs 3bets. That increases their FT3B stat which would then allow you to a) increase your 3bet frequency b) Skew your range more heavily towards bluffs. Also, you should be 3betting smaller (like i 3bet 2->5 instead of 2->7 or 8 vs a MSS user as opposed to vs a BSS user).

      Also just to point out, you could maybe 3bet up to 33% or perhaps even higher of your opponent's opening range, esp if he is weak postflop.
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Originally posted by mbml
      yea i noticed. I don't think there's much of a difference though. Concepts are the same. The thing which changes is the FT3B stat, I think at lower limits SSers aren't too comfortable calling wide vs 3bets. That increases their FT3B stat which would then allow you to a) increase your 3bet frequency b) Skew your range more heavily towards bluffs. Also, you should be 3betting smaller (like i 3bet 2->5 instead of 2->7 or 8 vs a MSS user as opposed to vs a BSS user).

      Also just to point out, you could maybe 3bet up to 33% or perhaps even higher of your opponent's opening range, esp if he is weak postflop.
      I agree with everything you said.

      I'll do the calcs to define my shoving range in BU vs SSer bb's resteal ranges and stack sizes.