[NL20-NL50] Nl20 Sh Jj

    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.20(BB) Replayer
      SB ($26.82)
      Hero ($20.50)
      UTG ($22.44)
      UTG+1 ($20.80)
      CO ($22.03)
      BTN ($18.31)

      Dealt to Hero J:club: J:spade:

      fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.80, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.60

      FLOP ($1.70) 5:club: 3:spade: 6:spade:

      Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $1.40, Hero calls $1.40

      TURN ($4.50) 5:club: 3:spade: 6:spade: 8:diamond:

      Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $3.80, Hero calls $3.80

      RIVER ($12.10) 5:club: 3:spade: 6:spade: 8:diamond: K:club:

      Hero checks, UTG+1 checks

      Reg

      I don't know why I did not 3bet preflop. Maybe his stats looked tight preflop, so I wanted to keep pot smaller.

      On flop - this is not good for cbet but if I don't have info that he cbets rarely I think its a c/c.

      On turn I c/c again, because if I donk bet, not much calls I will get. If he check behind - let it be, I am not getting 3 streets of value anyway I guess. I could maybe bet on river if the card is good.

      On river it would be hard now, but I guess I should fold if he bets. Or I should assume that he 3 barrel bluffs, but without info I cannot assume this I think.
  • 10 replies
    • pleno1
      pleno1
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      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Hey SPeedFANat1c,

      I think 3bet is obviously standard, however calling can be ok vs some opponents who play very tight and fold alot ot 3bets.

      On this baord we definitely have a bluff catchers so I'm happy that you just c/call. On the turn h is still betting worse hands for value so it is an easy call.

      On the river I don't like donking so obviously checking is cool.
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      and when he bets?

      obviously we're happy when it goes x/x and we win nearly all the time but else c/f? he has also been betting pretty big.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
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      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Hola,

      Yeah when he bets river its close. I would try to find out his hand strength depending on his bet size.

      Usually when people bet big they have a big hand or try to represent a big hand.

      When somebody bets small they usually have a weakish showdown or thin value hand.

      If he bets small its hard for him to have this thin value range as AK is basically only the hand and even with that he may go for a bigger bet, so vs a smaller sizing I thnik we beat his range and have a good price, vs a big bet I'd just fold.

      THoughts?
    • double2
      double2
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      Joined: 04.11.2008 Posts: 14,642
      You said in first post that 3bet JJ in this spot is standard. Well, vs regs from these limits I strongly disagree. Usually they really respect these 3bets from the blinds when they are UTG/MP and they really fold a lot. Also, Hero most likely is not 3bet bluffing this spot very often I would imagine so more respect this 3bet has.

      All in all, if there is not a specific dynamic between these two I donn't see a value 3bet in this spot vs most regs.

      Am I talking crap?
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Hey double,

      Like I said in the rest of the post, if they are tight and fold to a lot of 3bets then flatting is definitely fine. Generally taking the initiative is going to be good and vs anybody who is not a reg, 3betting is going to be optimal. I'm not sure on the exact fish:reg ratio at NL25, but I assume there are enough fish and bad regs swimming around :)

      If we remember the equation of all equations..

      Position + Initiative = profit

      Here we have neither and we immediately turn a premium hand into a bluff catcher, if people really only 4bet KK+ here then a good adjustment would be to start 3bet folding JJ as I'm convinced bad regs will chase certain hands like suited aces and pocket pairs. Vs the nittiest of nits calling is optimal though I agree.

      Not talking crap, no. Lots of valid points.
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
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      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Hmmm can you please elaborate why x/c is better than lead/f OTT? He can def. check behind all draws so on the turn there are certainly some weaker hands calling. (Also 99, TT). It's even a good result if he folds AK because he wouldn't barrel us and thus may catch us up for free.

      Where am I wrong? :)
    • pleno1
      pleno1
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      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      I don't particuarly have a donking game strategy. If you have on then cool and I'm sure it can be profitable, I'm a bigger believer in just having the normal checking without initiative strategy.

      On this board I would imagine he cbets 100% of his range, whilst when we donk he continues with a pretty narrow range.

      I don't mind so much if he bets with AK, JJ isn't a weak hand we should be comofrtable playing multi street poker here.
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Let's say it like this:

      Everything he bets the turn with, will call our donkbet.

      I would def. check/call if the guy likes to barrel T a lot and I'm def. leading if the guy is very tight on the turn

      What do you think? Maybe the only disadvantage is that our hand is pretty much face-up with a turndonk?
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      our hand is pretty much face-up with a turndonk?


      I think it is. Because - we don't bluff bet in this spot do we? At least I don't. And we are rarely having set, only 88 could be, because we should raise sets on flop. So it looks like medium hand. And he might raise it, and we cannot continue after he raises.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
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      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      check/call and lead the turn vs guys who have wtsd and are pretty tight when barreling could be good.

      I like it, good exploit.

      Would definitely c/call the flop though.