[NL20-NL50] 3 bet pot OOP

    • daisuke3823
      daisuke3823
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2008 Posts: 8,321
      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      ハンドをプレーする

      $0.1/$0.25 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)

      Known players:
      BU:
      $83.47
      SB:
      $28.06
      BB:
      $12.15
      MP2:
      $33.13
      MP3:
      $36.07
      CO (Hero):
      $24.18


      Preflop: Hero is CO with J, K.
      MP2 folds, MP3 raises to $0.75, Hero raises to $2.30, BU calls $2.30, 3 folds, 2 folds, MP3 folds.

      Flop: ($5.7) 9, 6, J (2 players)
      Hero bets $2.90, BU calls $2.90.

      Turn: ($11.5) T (2 players)
      Hero checks, BU bets $6.60, Hero folds, BU gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $11.5.
      MP stats  in 137 hands vpip35 pfr30 af1,8 wtsd20 w$sd0 BTN stats in 317 hands vpip16 pfr13 af1,7 wtsd35,w$sd27 NETwon-35$     
      BTN can be floating .I won around $10 from him 5 hands earlier when it was SB VS BB.

      I folded here because he could have suited of diamond high cards or connector .
      how should I have played this hand?
  • 10 replies
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,698
      You are missing the important stats.
      1) BU opening range
      2) Fold to 3bet from BU
      3) Fold to Flop Cbet in 3b pots

      After you have these stats, try to answer these questions
      1) What's his Flop Calling range? Is it only straight draws and flush draws and pairs? Or could he be floating AQ or with backdoor draws?
      2) Does he turn weaker pairs into bluffs?

      If your answer to 1 is that he has a tighter range, and your answer to 2 is that he doesn't, then this is an easy c/f cos you are beaten by KQ and sets and flushes and you are not beating anything else.

      However if you think he could have worse stuff, and perhaps turn 88 into a bluff then you need to c/c here and c/c again if he is the type who follows through on his bluffs.

      With that said given that I don't know too much about your opponent, I'm guessing it's fine to c/f this and maybe c/c if you have Kd or Jd (for blockers and also it may give you a live flush draw).
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      When you 3bet pre I assume you do it because MP has a wide range and will probably call more than he should. That said, look for his positional open raise percentage, VPIP and PFR are very limited in the information they give you for such plays.

      Once BU gets involved it sucks. As Galvin mentioned, look at his fold to 3bet and I would add look at his cold 4bet. If he never cold 4bets you can probably put QQ+ in his range as well. Even if he does, he might still flat given that you 3bet MP in CO and it's not like BU vs SB vs BB. I wouldn't exclude QQ+ from his preflop range.

      When MP folds I think your plan sort of backfired. You had thin value preflop vs MP but are clearly not doing too well vs BU's calling range. You flop TP2K but considering his range, how good is your hand really? My thinking of postflop play is to limit the money I put in the pot unless I flop big because BU's range has me in bad shape.

      I think checking the flop is reasonable and prefer it compared to cbetting. A cbet should still be profitable but I think too often you have to do what you did: check/fold turn or river. You don't like to see a diamond, 8, T, Q, A imo. That's quite a few cards that will make you c/f. Good cards for you would only be K and J. K is not even that great because it doesn't make you crush his range, it probably just puts you reasonably ahead. J is only gin card imo.

      Now, consider blanks. BU will correctly play his position to bluff and value bet at good frequencies if you check usually or call at good frequencies if you bet on blank turns.

      You can add more of your thinking when playing the hand since sometimes you can play it well but not really know why so it will be hard for you to repeat the good play in similar spots.
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Just a few questions:

      - Preflop I think we are better off calling if you are choosing between 3bet FOR VALUE or a flat. A 3bet for value would be too thin. Though our hand doesn't play that great vs an MP range so I prefer (and I also think that's why hero did 3bet) a 3bet AS A BLUFF.

      - Postflop I don't see enough value so I would play my hand as a bluffcatcher and def. X/C F and X/decide turn. So I agree with Emanuel here.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      Just a few questions:

      - Preflop I think we are better off calling if you are choosing between 3bet FOR VALUE or a flat. A 3bet for value would be too thin. Though our hand doesn't play that great vs an MP range so I prefer (and I also think that's why hero did 3bet) a 3bet AS A BLUFF.

      - Postflop I don't see enough value so I would play my hand as a bluffcatcher and def. X/C F and X/decide turn. So I agree with Emanuel here.
      Actually, preflop 3betting is not as straight forward as value or bluff. What you mostly do is to 3bet to create a more profitable situation than calling or folding. Your opponent could call only better but play so badly postflop that your 3bet is still better than a fold and better than a flat because you rely less on actually hitting your hand. That's just a simple example.

      Furthermore, if you have a reasonably wide 3betting range, people either have to start calling with more marginal hands or you end up printing money. For example, if you usually 3bet 12% from SB, I am definitely flatting worse than KJo so you might say you get value. If I don't call worse than that you just print money from my folds so that's also good.

      On the topic of preflop 3bet for value or bluff: How do you decide whether you get value or you are bluffing with a hand?
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      Just a few questions:

      - Preflop I think we are better off calling if you are choosing between 3bet FOR VALUE or a flat. A 3bet for value would be too thin. Though our hand doesn't play that great vs an MP range so I prefer (and I also think that's why hero did 3bet) a 3bet AS A BLUFF.

      - Postflop I don't see enough value so I would play my hand as a bluffcatcher and def. X/C F and X/decide turn. So I agree with Emanuel here.
      Actually, preflop 3betting is not as straight forward as value or bluff. What you mostly do is to 3bet to create a more profitable situation than calling or folding. Your opponent could call only better but play so badly postflop that your 3bet is still better than a fold and better than a flat because you rely less on actually hitting your hand. That's just a simple example.

      Furthermore, if you have a reasonably wide 3betting range, people either have to start calling with more marginal hands or you end up printing money. For example, if you usually 3bet 12% from SB, I am definitely flatting worse than KJo so you might say you get value. If I don't call worse than that you just print money from my folds so that's also good.

      On the topic of preflop 3bet for value or bluff: How do you decide whether you get value or you are bluffing with a hand?
      Hmmm yeah there is again something interesting in what you say but I ask you the same question: How can we ever know when a 3bet is better than a flat or fold with KJo?

      In this hand it is a bluff if we 3bet. The guy is in MP and he should now that we are not 3betting light vs MP unless he has a good sample on us. If he is kinda fishy then he could indeed call QJs and TJs so it could be for value too yes. Though, in my eyes the definition of a 3bet for value is also when you plan to go broke over a 4bet. Vs someone who calls a lot of 3bets and only 4bet realllly tight it's another story, there KJ could be a 3bet for value. Most regs on the other hand other fold or 4bet OOP so we can only 3bet FOR VALUE if we are planning to go broke over a 4bet. I hope this makes sense.

      In this exact hand I think all 3 options are OK. A flat could be good because he seems very active and thus could have a wider range then most regs. Because we don't know his postfloptendencies all too well I prefer to 3bet or fold though. So to sumarize I like to 3bet bluff in this spot with blockers and get to know him a bit more. My plan is to fold to a 4bet.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Against someone with 30 PFR we probably have some value unless he plays some very weird style (like 10% EP and MP, 30% CO and 100% BU and SB open raise). There are some that do that...

      How can we ever know when a 3bet is better than a flat or fold with KJo?


      If you flat you have to outplay your opponent(s) postflop without hitting. In practice, you have to do about the same when you 3bet but here's the difference:
      - you can win the pot preflop;
      - you maximize chances you will have position postflop
      - you also 'bluff' others out of the pot/isolate the raiser.
      - you don't get squeezed (you can get cold 4bet but that doesn't happen as often nor is it as hard to play against)

      Everyone knows about isolating limpers but there are quite a few cases when people mistakenly open wide from early position (most fish and bad regulars) that you can isolate them with a 3bet.

      Your definition is correct if you are facing a regular that only 4bets or folds OOP but most don't do that. Also, if you (3bettor) are aggressive enough and wide enough with your 3bets, your opponent will eventually start calling OOP or 4bet/fold so often that you have a profitable 3bet/5bet with some broadway hands, smaller pairs or suited Ax hands. That said, when you get called, you don't get it in ahead but overall you make money from the times he folds.

      Is it a bluff 3bet or value 3bet with Ax or broadways and not fold against a 4bet? :)

      You are on the right track but it's not quite complete because you take into account just one part which is preflop getting 4bet or getting a fold. You don't consider getting called or what his 4betting range would actually be. Don't get me wrong, it's where I was about a year ago so I understand it's a bit tougher to grasp but there's more to it than value/bluff with a hand, especially when equity is so dynamic.
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Thanks again for the detailed answer man. I'll read it a 2nd time later :P

      So:

      3Bet is best in this exact hand right? :)

      :f_biggrin:

      Over and out
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      So:

      3Bet is best in this exact hand right? :)

      :f_biggrin:

      Over and out
      Yes, I would 3bet because I expect someone with such a wide PFR to open enough that he will just call OOP often (prob doesn't think about it too much either). It's vs player in MP though so BU coming along sort of 'ruins my plan' so now I'm definitely worried about being dominated more often than not like I said in my previous comments. :)
    • daisuke3823
      daisuke3823
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2008 Posts: 8,321
      Originally posted by mbml
      You are missing the important stats.
      1) BU opening range
      2) Fold to 3bet from BU
      3) Fold to Flop Cbet in 3b pots

      After you have these stats, try to answer these questions
      1) What's his Flop Calling range? Is it only straight draws and flush draws and pairs? Or could he be floating AQ or with backdoor draws?
      2) Does he turn weaker pairs into bluffs?

      If your answer to 1 is that he has a tighter range, and your answer to 2 is that he doesn't, then this is an easy c/f cos you are beaten by KQ and sets and flushes and you are not beating anything else.

      However if you think he could have worse stuff, and perhaps turn 88 into a bluff then you need to c/c here and c/c again if he is the type who follows through on his bluffs.

      With that said given that I don't know too much about your opponent, I'm guessing it's fine to c/f this and maybe c/c if you have Kd or Jd (for blockers and also it may give you a live flush draw).

      couldnt find the these stats in holdem maneger

      these are the one you are talking about?
      per unopend btn 0 ,btn Fold to 3Bet from brinds 0 Frop Fold to CB-3Bet Pot N/A 

      or is there other stats in HM?
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      The hand sample is pretty small so the stats there don't matter so much from them.

      But in general in these spots, these are the exact stats we should look for.