3bet sizings

    • zumpar
      zumpar
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 1,185
      So i was wondering what was your opinion on 3bet sizings IP and OOP.

      I was watching a video a while back (cant remember which one honestly) in which a coach was playing NL10 and was always using smallish 3bet sizes IP with a very balanced polarized range.

      Sizings are pretty much 2.6-2.7x instead of standard 3-3.2x
      (OOP i raise 3.2-3.5x ofc)

      So i tried to adapt this in my game, and i can honestly tell you it works great so far over a nice sample, folding frequencies of regs are pretty much the same as when i was using standard sizings.

      Works pretty good against fish as well
      -folds - ok
      -calls - ok, you are playing a big pot vs fish IP with a playable hand (they tend to call a lot with a wide range cause well, "its not much more") and u pretty much take it down with a cbet all the time
      -4bets - ok, you can snap muck everthing but KK+ and you have not invested so much


      But when i was posting these hands with 3bet pots on a hand evaluation forum, i got destroyed by veriz saying
      "why do you 3bet so small, just so you can make more mistakes postflop"?


      so i wanted to know what you think about 3betting smallish IP
      :)
  • 14 replies
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,338
      i tend to just make it 3x IP and a bit more OOP.. i went through a phase of 3betting less than 3x IP and i quite liked it, dunno why i changed. the thing with that is your fold equity will decrease somewhat and actually villain will also be making a mistake by calling OOP more for that reason.. maybe im wrong? i guess fish are calling 3x almost just as much as they are 2.7x anyway so maybe it doesnt make much of a difference.

      [also moved to NL board :) ]
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by zumpar

      -4bets - ok, you can snap muck everthing but KK+ and you have not invested so much

      Can you pls explain this one to me? Why would you snap fold vs 4bet after making it so small? By making your 4bets smaller you will make it easier for opponents to 4bet you, meaning they will 4bet more often and you should get it in lighter. Now here's the problem.

      Lets say you face a standard 3x open and you 3bet it to 7.5x. Now he decides to 4bet bluff to 17.5bbs. What can you do now? Your option to 5bet shove is pretty much out of the question. Your now risking a lot more to win a lot less as oposed to if you make it 10bb and he 4bets to 22.5bb. Assuming your 100bb deep in first scenario your risking 92.5bbs to win 25bbs while in a standard scenario your risking 90bb's to win 33.5bb.

      Unless your 150bb deep in a scenario like this you also can't 5bet/fold.

      Now since you really can't raise you either have to call or fold and you really should be calling a pretty wide range if your going for small 3bets IP. And unless your comfortable playing massive pots with weak ranges with very little room to make moves postflop. Like you can't even bluff raise the flop since what ever you do pretty much gets you commited since the pot is so bloated at this point.

      It also sucks vs fish. They call normal 3bets anyway and i see no good reason why make 3bets smaller vs them and not being able to stack them. If anything you should be making larger 3bets vs fish, especially with a tight range.
    • zumpar
      zumpar
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 1,185
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Originally posted by zumpar

      -4bets - ok, you can snap muck everthing but KK+ and you have not invested so much

      Can you pls explain this one to me? Why would you snap fold vs 4bet after making it so small? By making your 4bets smaller you will make it easier for opponents to 4bet you, meaning they will 4bet more often and you should get it in lighter. Now here's the problem.
      ill try.
      im sure the limits u play are way different and way more aggro preflop.
      from what ive seen in the 30k hands on iPoker NL5-10 speed since everest moved there, noone 4bets bluffs. period. 80% of players flat AK/QQ vs 3bets, even OOP, so their 4bet range is almost always KK+, therefore u can muck just about anything and be happy about it. They are not opening their 4bet ranges against smaller 3bets, frequencies are still the same, its not like they start bluff4betting you wider then they would against a normal sized 3bet.

      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Lets say you face a standard 3x open and you 3bet it to 7.5x. Now he decides to 4bet bluff to 17.5bbs. What can you do now? Your option to 5bet shove is pretty much out of the question. Your now risking a lot more to win a lot less as oposed to if you make it 10bb and he 4bets to 22.5bb. Assuming your 100bb deep in first scenario your risking 92.5bbs to win 25bbs while in a standard scenario your risking 90bb's to win 33.5bb.
      i actually thought about this a lot, but from what i explained earlier, since noone has a bluff4betting range, with KK+ against villains KK+/sometimes QQ/AK it doesnt really matter if u ship it over the 17.5bb 4bet or just make a smallish 5bet to say, 32-34bb ur always getting it in, cause once villain 4bets he is never laying the hand down.

      i know this could make no sense to you and the limit ur playing, but thats just how it is at NL5

      Also, and more importantly, if someone opens for 3bb, i usually 3bet to 8bb, not 7.5, so 4bets are bigger than 17.5, its usually around 20, so if i shove im not risking that much to win so less.
      Other thing, 4bet sizings on NL5 arent always that small (2.3-2.6 lets say). 50% of people 4bet 3x so you get to 24bb 4bet and there u have an easy push/fold.
    • zumpar
      zumpar
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 1,185
      [quote]Originally posted by zumpar
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Originally posted by zumpar

      -4bets - ok, you can snap muck everthing but KK+ and you have not invested so much

      Can you pls explain this one to me? Why would you snap fold vs 4bet after making it so small? By making your 4bets smaller you will make it easier for opponents to 4bet you, meaning they will 4bet more often and you should get it in lighter. Now here's the problem.
      ill try.
      im sure the limits u play are way different and way more aggro preflop.
      from what ive seen in the 30k hands on iPoker NL5-10 speed since everest moved there, noone 4bets bluffs. period. 80% of players flat AK/QQ vs 3bets, even OOP, so their 4bet range is almost always KK+, therefore u can muck just about anything and be happy about it. They are not opening their 4bet ranges against smaller 3bets, frequencies are still the same, its not like they start bluff4betting you wider then they would against a normal sized 3bet.

      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Lets say you face a standard 3x open and you 3bet it to 7.5x. Now he decides to 4bet bluff to 17.5bbs. What can you do now? Your option to 5bet shove is pretty much out of the question. Your now risking a lot more to win a lot less as oposed to if you make it 10bb and he 4bets to 22.5bb. Assuming your 100bb deep in first scenario your risking 92.5bbs to win 25bbs while in a standard scenario your risking 90bb's to win 33.5bb.
      i actually thought about this a lot, but from what i explained earlier, since noone has a bluff4betting range, with KK+ against villains KK+/sometimes QQ/AK it doesnt really matter if u ship it over the 17.5bb 4bet or just make a smallish 5bet to say, 32-34bb ur always getting it in, cause once villain 4bets he is never laying the hand down.

      i know this could make no sense to you and the limit ur playing, but thats just how it is at NL5

      Also, and more importantly, if someone opens for 3bb, i usually 3bet to 8bb, not 7.5, so 4bets are bigger than 17.5, its usually around 20, so if i shove im not risking that much to win so less.
      Other thing, 4bet sizings on NL5 arent always that small (2.3-2.6 lets say). 50% of people 4bet 3x so you get to 24bb 4bet and there u have an easy push/fold.

      hope it makes sense
    • zumpar
      zumpar
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 1,185
      oh, and i found the video, its pleno1 on NL10 zoom

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/26177/
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      @ zumpar: What does 3Betting small allow you to do? Can you tell me what happened to your 3B ranges? (if you changed them)
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,084
      I have the strangest of all habits. I let my position influence what I raise, and how much, like pretty much everybody else. But here it comes. I also consider stack sizes and who I'm up against and my cards.

      I'll stop there to hear your objections at this point, which I'm pretty sure you have plenty of.

      /Johan = :f_confused:
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Yeah it makes sense to do that on nl5 where ppl don't adapt correctly. It works great for stealing the initiative. But once you hit even nl50 ppl will pick up on what you doing so you'll have to adapt accordingly.
    • zumpar
      zumpar
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 1,185
      Originally posted by Dublimax
      @ zumpar: What does 3Betting small allow you to do? Can you tell me what happened to your 3B ranges? (if you changed them)
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      I have the strangest of all habits. I let my position influence what I raise, and how much, like pretty much everybody else. But here it comes. I also consider stack sizes and who I'm up against and my cards.

      I'll stop there to hear your objections at this point, which I'm pretty sure you have plenty of.

      /Johan =
      allows me to pretty much take initiative into my hands IP in a relatively big pot vs mostly fish which is always good, also you take down the pot a lot preflop which is also fine.

      as far as what happened to my ranges, they changed a little, its a little wider now, hard to define it exactly, depends a lot on opponent, my image, metagame, stacksizes, opponents image, players behind me etc...
      in general im 3betting valuehands, lets say TT+ AQ+, also hands like smallish suited connectors, small suited aces, small suited kings, very small pairs, some hands like KQ,KJ,KT....

      i usually only flat 66-99, T9s, JTs, QJs, ATs, AJs, KJs IP

      but this all really depends on the above factors, so its not like im following an exact 3betting chart every single time.

      as far as sizing, its not like i 3bet small with weak hands and 3bet big with big hands, i always use the same sizing, whether i have AA or 67s.
      Ofc this applies only if im IP, (2.6-2.7x), OOP i raise about 3.5x
    • zumpar
      zumpar
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 1,185
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Yeah it makes sense to do that on nl5 where ppl don't adapt correctly. It works great for stealing the initiative. But once you hit even nl50 ppl will pick up on what you doing so you'll have to adapt accordingly.

      when i hit NL50 ill be sure to adjust accordingly - at least i hope so :D
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,084
      @MatejM47

      Yes, I was expecting that answer, and you are right. But, for every countermeasure there is a counter countermeasure. I'll have to mix things up. It is still true that on average, I bet more on hands that I want to bet more with. But I mix things up, and try to take into account recent history. As of now, I have no particular strategy (algorithm) for how exactly to mix up (because there is no need to). I am convinced that there are ways of mixing up that will be better (at least no worse) than using the same size for all hands.

      My point is that deception, while being a vital ingredient, is just one ingredient. My bet size will give my opponent a bit of a clue about my holding. I hope that my opponent realizes this, and I hope too that he does not realize that that piece of information is highly untrustworthy, even though it contains a grain of truth. [If he finds out about this latter point, he hopefully finds out about it the hard way :D .]

      @zumpar

      ...allows me to pretty much take initiative into my hands IP in a relatively big pot vs mostly fish which is always good, also you take down the pot a lot preflop which is also fine.
      Yes.

      /Johan = :f_confused:
      /Johan = :f_confused:
    • zumpar
      zumpar
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 1,185
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      My bet size will give my opponent a bit of a clue about my holding. I hope that my opponent realizes this, and I hope too that he does not realize that that piece of information is highly untrustworthy, even though it contains a grain of truth.
      ur just levelling now :D



      @zumpar
      yes

      /Johan = :f_confused:
      /Johan = :f_confused:
      [/quote]what confuses you, sir? :)
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,084
      OMG. I was doubly confused!

      It's not only pure leveling, since my cards are influencing a bit how I execute (how much I raise or even if I flat call). Some may say that bet sizing is part of leveling. This is a matter of definition.

      [Hmmm..., at least this sort of thing is what I aspire to do - every session, but sometimes I just sit there playing so so standard, and so so boring play. Set mining and folding instead of trying to steal a big pot versus mr. FoldTopPairToMegaRaise, etc etc.]

      /Johan = :f_confused:
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      Small 3bet IP is great under the right situation.

      1. Players folding a lot to 3bets, not adjusting calling/raising frequencies depending on your size. Cheaper price on your bluff.

      2. Players who are calling a lot but not playing "fit-or-fold" on the flop. (Against fit or folders a larger 3bet works as alluded to in this thread). Against players who want to mix it up postflop you are going to be maximising both your positional and skill advantage by having a higher stack-to-pot ratio. By 3betting huge vs these type of players you are negating your own edge to an extent.

      There was a time many years back when a 4bet would often be committing because 3bets and 4bets were so huge. These days we can comfortably 4bet/fold because our 3bet/4bet sizes are a lot smaller. I actually see this going further to the extent where 5bet/folding wouldn't be ridiculous 100bb deep. I'm sure it might still be ok to 4x 3bet IP, but I actually think it's pretty oldschool.