blind defance SH

    • dooleslovs
      dooleslovs
      Diamond
      Joined: 17.02.2011 Posts: 484
      Hi what is consider to be normal fold to BU and CO open from BB %. I think I fold too much, I read that one pokerstrategy coach folds only 50%, I can not imagine how he achieves that, and how it can be profitable, so I need advice. Now I fold about 75%, 3bet polorized range of about 12% and call with PP, strong siuted broadways, some unsiuted broadways, depending on Vilians stats of course. But in geniral if somebody opens 50-60% from BU, and folds like 60% to 3bets with 4bet range ~4% what should be you default 3bet and caling ranges and why. Now I am experimentig with caling lighter with 87o - QTo and ch/R a lot on bords like J25 K37 Q84.
  • 12 replies
    • aXSesPS
      aXSesPS
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.12.2010 Posts: 61
      Hi There

      If you wish to learn about how much to defend from where and why, I would suggest goign through the video's from coach bierbar.

      he explains your question from a mathematical and gamepoint theory perspective.
      So rather than just receiving answers from members, you could calculate it yourself and also understand the how and why.

      I am myself going through this and learnign various defence: calling, 3betting etc from various positions.

      THanks

      Gary
    • aXSesPS
      aXSesPS
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.12.2010 Posts: 61
      here is a direct link to his video's.

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/#searchtext=bierbaer&key=all&contenttype=0&gametype=0&tablesize=0&languages=en&levels=basic,bronze,silver,gold,platinum,diamond&lowerlimit=0&upperlimit=100&ob=date&od=desc&page=1&rpp=10
    • dooleslovs
      dooleslovs
      Diamond
      Joined: 17.02.2011 Posts: 484
      thanks
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,697
      it really depends on his opening size. For example vs a minraise you probably need to defend really wide since you are going to be priced in so often with 23% pot odds. Of course u won't have initiative and position but based on odds alone you may have to defend at least 50% of hands, maybe even wider especially if he opens 75%+. you might want to start by stoving marginal hands like K2o or 95s vs a 75% open, also take into account whether u think you can showdown the hand profitably. I think it's important that you are able to call down with good frequencies and remain balanced, if not it's really pointless to defend so much.

      Vs a 3X raise your odds are far worse so you would need to take into account positional disadvantage + no initiative + capped range more often and defend a much tighter range. Odds would be 2/6,5 = ~30%
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Originally posted by mbml
      it really depends on his opening size. For example vs a minraise you probably need to defend really wide since you are going to be priced in so often with 23% pot odds. Of course u won't have initiative and position but based on odds alone you may have to defend at least 50% of hands, maybe even wider especially if he opens 75%+. you might want to start by stoving marginal hands like K2o or 95s vs a 75% open, also take into account whether u think you can showdown the hand profitably. I think it's important that you are able to call down with good frequencies and remain balanced, if not it's really pointless to defend so much.

      Vs a 3X raise your odds are far worse so you would need to take into account positional disadvantage + no initiative + capped range more often and defend a much tighter range. Odds would be 2/6,5 = ~30%

      How much we should compensated positional disadvantage and no initiative disadvantage?
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,697
      i dont have a fixed answer, but you also need to take into account relative skill as well. For example if someone barrels 100% it's really easy, just see your flop equity + pot odds vs his range and then call 3 streets. Same goes for someone who is always checking down.

      For someone with very good aggressive frequencies you should expect not to get to showdown that much. I think you would need at least 50-100% more pot odds than fold equity vs such a player.

      You also need to think about playability of your hand. For example 94o has 36% equity vs an 80% opening range. But since playability is so poor you probably don't even get to realize your equity half the time. And if you only have 18% out of 36% equity, you can't call a minraise cos you get 23% pot odds.

      On the other hand, with 96s you have 43.6% equity. Assuming you can realize at least 60% of your equity due to the playability of your hand and assuming you don't get owned by your opponent, you would have like 26% equity which is enough to call a minraise (23% pot odds).

      It's quite difficult to quantify everything but you could try to
    • lnternet
      lnternet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2012 Posts: 782
      One way to sample playability is by doing a propokertools equity plot (like this) and using a sophisticated method to churn out some actual numbers. (25% or less - low factor, 25-50% - bluffcatch factor, 50-75% - value bet factor, 75%+ - nuts factor, then do a weighted sum. or less discreet have some continuous factor function and do the integral over the graph under that function. I haven't spent enough time on this but I think this is very promising, if only for comparing K2o equity monster but playability trash to 75s equity trash but playability monster)
    • getdotacom
      getdotacom
      Black
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 607
      I like Internets idea, it looks really interesting. Comparing equity on flops makes more sense than doing it preflop, but still I think we won't be able to compare K2o with 75s that way. Problem with that - when we have 75s and we're OOP and we have something around 40% equity on the flop, we can't realize it. In almost all cases it will be some sort of a draw and we won't get odds to call with it. But it's opposite for K2o - our equity won't change that much through the hand. But I think this could help a lot comparing hands which flops similar equity - like K2o with Q7o and 74s with 32s.

      Anyways, the best idea for solving this I've seen so far.
    • lnternet
      lnternet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2012 Posts: 782
      K2 equity comes from Khi which is usually in the bluffcatcher region and tough to play, hence bad playability

      75s equity comes (at least more so than K2o) from straights and flushes which is usually in the nuts category and awesome to play. (and draws to those, that is better equity to play with because it turns into the nuts sometimes, rather than Khi equity, which turns into a river best hand Khi sometimes)
    • getdotacom
      getdotacom
      Black
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 607
      I played a little bit with these simulations and different type of hands look pretty similar on flops. Even if we give like 90%+ super high weight, it's pretty much the same for most hands. That's because draws have it's equity distributed between 0 and 100% on later streets, it's around 40% on flop.

      But then I tried this with turns and rivers and graphs changed drastically. I think best way to do this is go from river to flop. We can take some flop, then generate all possible turns for that and all the rivers for each turn. Then we can do it your way for the rivers and assign that value for each turn, then go that way to the flop.

      I'm really excited about this, only problem it's super tough to do. If u're doing something like this and u need some help, definitely ask me ;)
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Originally posted by getdotacom
      I played a little bit with these simulations and different type of hands look pretty similar on flops. Even if we give like 90%+ super high weight, it's pretty much the same for most hands. That's because draws have it's equity distributed between 0 and 100% on later streets, it's around 40% on flop.

      But then I tried this with turns and rivers and graphs changed drastically. I think best way to do this is go from river to flop. We can take some flop, then generate all possible turns for that and all the rivers for each turn. Then we can do it your way for the rivers and assign that value for each turn, then go that way to the flop.

      I'm really excited about this, only problem it's super tough to do. If u're doing something like this and u need some help, definitely ask me ;)
      Can you elaborate a little bit? I do not understand it (red colored)
      It's easier to use Equilab for random turn and river analysis, no? ( too bad Equilab can't analysis random flop)
    • getdotacom
      getdotacom
      Black
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 607
      What I'm trying to say here is we can't use flop equity of a hand to determine how good is it. We have to get EV of that hand, but there isn't any method to convert hand equity into EV on the flop, as far as I know at least. Hand equity basically converts into EV only when there are no more streets left to act (on the river or we go allin). For example, we have 9s8s and flop comes 7s6sKd. We have very strong draw and we will hit the nuts like 50% of the time. We have like 50% equity vs reasonable range, but we will make a ton of money on this board. When we hold hand like K2, it will have more than 50% equity, but it will make very little money. So when we generate a graph for this flop with 9s8s, half of it should look like 95% equity, then a huge drop and rest 0 equity. But for K2 it should be almost linear. Then we can use weights and we will get huge difference between 9s8s and K2 on this board.

      For doing this, propokertools and equilab won't help us. We have to run many simulations and do some programming, because it will take years to do it manually. btw, anyone knows some good opensource equity calculator ? I googled some, but didn't test them yet