Is MSS profitable

    • pokerliz
      pokerliz
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.02.2012 Posts: 113
      Hi all,

      I have been playing MSS for some time and somehow I just wonder if this is profitable, to me it is such a tight style.
      Everytime I can play a hand the presure is there to make money with that hand because of the tight gameplay.
      And believe me I do try to steal and I dont steal too loose or to tight.
      Same as for c-betting, I don't c-bet every flop but still feel this is -EV.
      I review my sessions and can't seem to figure out what i played wrongfully with the hands i played or could play according MSS.
      I am just wondering if other people strugle with this.
  • 26 replies
    • JohnDoe1313
      JohnDoe1313
      Platinum
      Joined: 04.01.2011 Posts: 5,147
      Do you use a tracking software? If so, how many hands have you played?
    • holmeboy
      holmeboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2010 Posts: 1,336
      MSS is profitable.

      But most of that profit will be RB
    • pokerliz
      pokerliz
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.02.2012 Posts: 113
      Yes I do use Pokertracker 3 and have now played around 50.000 hands.
      I play on NL4 level and somehow still dont seem to be able to beat it or feel I am making progress.
      I am really struggling in convincing myself this should be a profitable gameplay.
      Do you people play different from the SHC ?
      I do for the c-bet thing as the SHC will tell on any flop to c-bet, I have already stopped doing that as that will be very exploitable for the regs.

      I also take a look at the stats, lots of people with a vpip of around 21.
      For me i find it very hard to give ranges to villain as for me they can have hit many flops.
      For example with AQs in preflop rase and a rainbowflop K85 as a king can be in my range for the preflop raise while villain can have limped with KQ he wont give up because he has hit his toppair.
      Then on river you dont improve and have to give up, but many times I have the feeling they just coldcall a bet and I am bluffed out of a pot.

      You read some blogs where people play this profitable and make progress in MSS, I can't understand what they are doing differently then I do.
    • JohnDoe1313
      JohnDoe1313
      Platinum
      Joined: 04.01.2011 Posts: 5,147
      Studying, analyzing, taking parts in coaching, sweat sessions etc. It's ok if you are BE at the begging, especially when you are new to poker.

      I think I've seen you posting just one hand for evaluation. That's a good spot to start with.
    • crisabsynt
      crisabsynt
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.01.2011 Posts: 7,071
      Here is my MSS result at NL2


    • pokerliz
      pokerliz
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.02.2012 Posts: 113
      Thanks for the reply, I have posted hands also on dutch forum but they dont seem to have a big forum for MSS anymore.
      I have already played some amount of hands, but still have that feeling of not profitable with c-betting and such.

      Crisabsynt, your stats look really nice.
      You vpip is higher then mine, i do use the SHC, does that mean you play more hands ?
      The vs 3betcall% does that mean you coldcall a 3bet from villains ?
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by pokerliz
      Crisabsynt, your stats look really nice.
      You vpip is higher then mine, i do use the SHC, does that mean you play more hands ?
      No it means he plays less hands obviously.
    • JohnDoe1313
      JohnDoe1313
      Platinum
      Joined: 04.01.2011 Posts: 5,147
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Originally posted by pokerliz
      Crisabsynt, your stats look really nice.
      You vpip is higher then mine, i do use the SHC, does that mean you play more hands ?
      No it means he plays less hands obviously.
      :facepalm:

      You should take SHC as a quide for starting your poker carrier. It's not perfect, because it doesn't take your opponents into consideration. You should study the game and pick up your spots, where you could widen your range.

      Imo Crisabsynt you are calling too much.
    • pokerliz
      pokerliz
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.02.2012 Posts: 113
      Hey Johndoe1313,

      So I am correct that Crisabsynt is calling lots of 3bets from villains ?
      As MatejM47 says he plays less hands, while his vpip is higher ???? I think you mean that I play less hands.

      I know the SHC is just to help you out in beginning and a guide, I already deviate from c-betting and some opening ranges.

      I wonder wat deviations people make from this SHC to make it profitable.
    • JohnDoe1313
      JohnDoe1313
      Platinum
      Joined: 04.01.2011 Posts: 5,147
      MatejM47 was trolling you.

      Not sure if Crisabsynt is calling a lot of 3bets but calling 5% more preflop in general than raising. Well it's ok if you know what you are doing postflop but definitely not standart for basic MSS and imo not needed on NL2. For begginers I would advise to be the preflop aggressor everytime you want to play a hand.

      You can get a food for though about deviating from SHC here
      deviation from MSS
    • crisabsynt
      crisabsynt
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.01.2011 Posts: 7,071
      I know my game is not an A game.
      I have a lot of leak, but I can win at NL2 with MSS.

      "vs 3-bet call"

      Usually I dont call 3-bet, If it is 3x or more sized bet.

      For example:

      I raise to 0,06 $ and BB raises to 0,18 $ as a 3-bet.

      In these situation, I usually 4-bet all-in, or fold.


      Fish usually do min 3-bet. I raise to 0,06 $ and a fish raises to 0,10 $. I think that I can call the remaining 0,04 $ to see a flop.


      An other example. Somebody raises to 0,04$(minraise), and an other fish raises to 0,08$ (min 3-bet).
    • pokerliz
      pokerliz
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.02.2012 Posts: 113
      I see, probably with even more callers in a 3-bet the odds of calling might be getting better.
      But on videos and on comments you see that calling is really a no go for MSS but I start to think that in some spots or situations this is possible.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,447
      It is profitable to play with a small stack because there are two built in advantages that large stacks simply don't have. Both involve multi way pots.

      1.) The second best made hand (big stack) may blow a good draw (also a big stack) off a hand he would have won with. Have you had a big stack, the draw would have (probably correctly) stayed in. Big lost pots become small won pots this way.

      Edit: This is not foolproof or obvious. It becomes fool proof if a big stack folds the best made hand.

      2.) Big stack play looser against each other. Example: You raise, a fish with a big stack calls. Another big stack calls with a marginal hand, because of the presence of the fish. You have, on average, higher equity than normally due to this. The big stack might think twice before risking his stack versus you. Now your presence is just a little bit annoying to him.

      These advantages are always there with a small stack. There are no inherent downsides (built in -EV spots) with a small stacks.

      I never play myself with a small stack, an I personally think that 100BB is to shallow for good poker on all streets. The only time I'd consider playing with a small stack is when playing a stake I don't belong playing in.

      If those are the objective points, then if you are a good player, you should have higher EV playing with a full stack. Contradiction? No, the best EV would be to move up in stakes, and play with a small stack again.

      There are other values to playing than EV. Everybody should sooner or later learn how to master deep stack play.

      /Johan = :f_confused:
    • porkimmondo
      porkimmondo
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 20.02.2010 Posts: 5,341
      Hi all from italian community :D

      first,excuse me for my bad english...

      I decided to start playing this strategy (MSS 6 MAX ) starting from nl 10 ... I want to know what bankroll management i do to use for this....

      thanks in advance :)
    • crisabsynt
      crisabsynt
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.01.2011 Posts: 7,071
      I play just FR, so I dont know SH strategy and bankroll.

      I think MSS needs bigger BRM.
      It is about 50BI, because, the variance is bigger than BSS.
    • pokerliz
      pokerliz
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.02.2012 Posts: 113
      thanks for the replys guys.
      As for now I play on Everest, my opinion there is that there is little fish and players play pretty tight (as stats say).
      Therefore i think the edges are getting smaller and you see more flips preflop.
    • pokerliz
      pokerliz
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.02.2012 Posts: 113
      I find it just very hard to advance to a higher level, I mean to get more out of this strategy, for me I think I am playing to tight.
      However when I do loosen up a bit I get punished for this, so I get back to supertight charts. This way you play breakeven or a little -EV.
      How can you advance and how to know when to loosen up or what hands to play to loosen up.
    • jurish123
      jurish123
      Diamond
      Joined: 30.08.2008 Posts: 96
      Yeap it's profitable but swingy as hell :D It's like playing 180man in sng. But remember that most of the MSS players are playing by simple chart, so if you want to beat it, make you're own chart or to be more precise, as you play try out different things and sooner or later you will find the right play and you will be as succesfull as playing BSS. :)
    • rr2000
      rr2000
      Basic
      Joined: 18.12.2012 Posts: 7
      Originally posted by pokerliz
      Hi all,

      I have been playing MSS for some time and somehow I just wonder if this is profitable, to me it is such a tight style.
      Everytime I can play a hand the presure is there to make money with that hand because of the tight gameplay.
      And believe me I do try to steal and I dont steal too loose or to tight.
      Same as for c-betting, I don't c-bet every flop but still feel this is -EV.
      I review my sessions and can't seem to figure out what i played wrongfully with the hands i played or could play according MSS.
      I am just wondering if other people strugle with this.
      it works only on loose games. if game is tight or ppl 3betting you often, your swings can go crazy (like these days on stars). This is the breaking point for mss.
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