Hand ranges

    • boozaf
      boozaf
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2009 Posts: 140
      Good evening everybody

      I'm having troubles assessing hand ranges pre-flop. Sometimes I think I might be ahead with fairly good hands like AQs or TT, with which I cannot call but also don't know if I should 4Bet based on the 3Bet numbers of the opponent.

      Is there anywhere I can find examples of what ranges of hand I should expect from some 3Bet or 4Bet value villain might have?

      Thanks a lot
  • 6 replies
    • Spungeh
      Spungeh
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.06.2011 Posts: 1,212
      This is why stats on the player are awesome :D

      Generally speaking also, its about position..

      Take into consideration,

      Hand strength -> position -> Villian(s) -> post-flop playability


      For instance, if you're holding TT in a 4bet spot, and you get shoved all in after that bet, you are almost always flipping or behind.

      If you are holding AQ in a 4bet spot, you are again almost behind/flipping.

      But lets say you call the 3bet, based on position -> villians. If you are IP you can play a wider range, due to being able to re-evaluate. If you are OOP then 4betting with say TT is allot better, as you are just going to get into tricky spots post-flop. Which will be marginal. As you are either going to get a good flop, 73Tr where you are just shoving anyway, or a decent one that is 735r where you are going to also want to be aggresive, but if a flop comes AJ2r then you are going to be in a shit spot OOP flatting a 3bet, whereas if you shove, you prob get it in ahead..

      tl;dr.. Gamble ;) BRM ;) Use position to the utter max, and dont listen to everything i say, read between the lines and adapt your own play style, and test out theories.. Play lowest stakes, get tactics then test it up top.

      Hope my ramblings helped.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,903
      Originally posted by boozaf
      Is there anywhere I can find examples of what ranges of hand I should expect from some 3Bet or 4Bet value villain might have?
      Thanks a lot
      If you download Equilab then run it, you will see a set of 10 row labelled "hand Range" at the top.
      At the very left of each row, is a position label.

      Immediately to the right of that is an icon showing a set of cards.
      If you hover the mouse over it, you can read "Hand Range Selection"

      Click the icon next to MP3.
      On the right-hand side you see a box with "Predefined hand ranges"
      Open the Pokerstrategy.com - No Limit FR Open Raising Chart Standard list, and choose MP3

      Click OK.
      You should now see in the MP3 hand range row, what we would expect a sane, standard reg to be open raising with in that position.

      Now to answer you question:
      Click on Tools on the menu; then click on Hand Range Calculator
      The target range is in the top half -- you can modify it if you want.

      Set the slider to 45% then click "calculate hand range" you will see in the bottom half the range that has >= 45% equity against the range in the top half.

      In this example, it shows AJo+,AJs+,77+

      So if you 3Bet with that range, you can expect to win 45% of the time if called.
      However if this particular MP3 folds 33% to a 3Bet, you win 33% of the time right then, and 45% of the other 67%, so overall , you win 33% + 30% about 63 % of the time. When you take into account that if he calls, you are winning 45% of a bigger pot, you could go even wider.

      If you set the slider to 37.5%, the range is:
      22+
      A2s+, K7s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s
      A8o+, KJo+, QJo

      Even with this wide 3Betting range, and assuming that he still folds 33% of the time, your EV is now 33% + (37.55 * 67%) = 58% -- so still above break-even.

      I have ignored that fact that sometimes MP3 will 4Bet you, but you can use the tool to predict what ranges villain will have for that, too.

      I have simplified the math a bunch too.
      I may even have gotten it wrong <== hmmmm this might expain a few things :D

      I have also assumed that villain is not a whacko spew monkey who will call anything.

      As spungeh says, in these cases, stats rule.

      Enjoy,
      --VS
    • boozaf
      boozaf
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2009 Posts: 140
      Thanks a lot Spungeh and specially VorpalF2F for the thorough explanation.

      Equilab is sure a superb program, I've never REALLY used because I started playing no-limit for just about a month now (and yesterday I moved up a limit \o/)

      I would like to ask a further question, though: in this topic (there's no need to read the topic) I open raised for 4BB from MP1 (and I do this standardly).
      Judge ctstc told me a 3BB open raise from MP1 should be enough.

      I'm not trying to get fussy or picky about what the articles say X what ctstc said, I'm just looking for somewhat of a solid pattern of open raising values.

      Should I open raise for 4BB from EP, 3BB from MP and 2BB from LP (FR games)?

      What about SR games? I've seen some videos on SR and rarely saw a 4BB open raising. If you can, I would like to know a standard open raising value on that too.

      Thanks a lot for the time and patience :)
    • ExternalUseOnly
      ExternalUseOnly
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2010 Posts: 3,373
      Hey :)

      Nice to see you bringing this up with the judge in the thread its always better to ask if you are unsure and get some discussion flowing. We learn by asking questions right? I've currently been playing a lot of Pot Limit Omaha so have forgotten how to play holdem especially full ring games :f_cool: so you will have to wait for the judge to explain his process but its great to see some discussion going :)

      As for SH games people have different preferences of bet sizes some like to raise 3bb from all positions some like 4bb from EP and 3bb from everywhere else some people like to raise 2.5bb from cut-off and button. I think as a beginner you can stick to 3bbs and concentrate on picking up the basics of the game like counting odds and outs hand reading etc especially at the micros i don't think many people pay attention to bet sizing.

      Good luck keep up the practice

      Carl
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,903
      Originally posted by boozaf
      I would like to ask a further question, though: in this topic (there's no need to read the topic) I open raised for 4BB from MP1 (and I do this standardly).
      Judge ctstc told me a 3BB open raise from MP1 should be enough.

      It is a matter of pot odds and fold equity.
      4BB denies the BB decent pot odds.

      However, if everyone at the table is Open-raising 3BB, then opening 4BB means that it just cost you 1 extra BB everytime you have to fold.

      If you do that only once per hundred hands...

      You get the picture.

      OTOH, I'm not yet ready to open only 2 from the BTN -- It is just too enticing then for the blinds to play back, so I'm still 3 from BTN.

      I'f I'm raising from the SB over MP limpers, I even add another BB sometimes
    • boozaf
      boozaf
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2009 Posts: 140
      Thank you guys, that was really helpful. :)

      P.S.: I'm working on my hand ranges as we speak. ;)