[NL20-NL50] SH25 FF blindwars on SB

    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      PartyGaming - $0.25 NL (6 max) FAST - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      BTN: $47.55
      Hero (SB): $26.97
      BB: $25.00
      UTG: $7.94
      MP: $30.77
      CO: $25.68

      Hero posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

      Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has A:spade: 8:diamond:

      fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.50, BB raises to $1.75, Hero raises to...

      again, unknown likely reg guy.

      - how wide do you like to open here, also considering fast fold dynamics? vs unknown i'm experimenting with minraising like ~50% and double barreling a lot of reasonable textures and i think that i'm getting away with it, thoughts?
      - as played i think that this is a "pretty clear" 4bet spot :f_biggrin: thoughts on oop sizing vs his sizing?
  • 6 replies
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      I never fold to a minraise from SB when in BB so vs me doing that will make your life hell. :D

      I think if you open >30% from SB vs BB you will get in trouble without very big postflop edge. I would definitely FOLD A8o to a 3bet though. Although your idea of blocker effect is correct, you are missing what the consequence of 4betting A8o is. First of all, he can call 4bet IP given prelfop sizings so your hand will suck when called. Next, your 4bet frequency will be off the charts if you use A8o (I've noticed you using K4o as well, it's the same idea). That means your oppnents are correct in:
      a) calling your 4bets with good preflop odds since you have very crappy hands
      b) shoving light against your 4bets because you have a weak Ax or Kx hand like 90% of the time.

      Yes, you want to 4bet quite a bit against light 3bettors but use the hands that are just not good enough to call such as K7s, A8s, A9s, etc. Whatever you think is not good enough to call for you IP or OOP. This ensures you are not crushed when called preflop and your frequency is not too high.

      Compare this situation to 3betting any 2 cards against someone folding to 3bets 70% of the time. If you only play preflop, you can 3bet any 2 but there's more to it than that. It's the same case here: play doesn't end when you 4bet.
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      never folding to sb minraises makes sense :D

      while i know that i definitely open too much and that this is nowhere near optimal, i'm a bit stubborn and want to do this for a little longer to see what people are doing before reverting to "standard" ranges and 3x :D

      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      First of all, he can call 4bet IP given prelfop sizings so your hand will suck when called. Next, your 4bet frequency will be off the charts if you use A8o (I've noticed you using K4o as well, it's the same idea). That means your oppnents are correct in:
      a) calling your 4bets with good preflop odds since you have very crappy hands
      b) shoving light against your 4bets because you have a weak Ax or Kx hand like 90% of the time.
      i fully agree with that.
      however, i mostly only spaz vs relative unknowns so they don't know yet that this is the right adjustment. :f_biggrin:
      once i think that i'm already perceived as an aggro monkey as a default i switch to value heavier ranges without offsuit trash.

      i think that the problem in this specific spot is position - i kind of have to 4bet really huge (like at least $5) so that he doesn't call with pretty much anything playable that he 3bet with.
      on btn we could 4bet to $4.5 and get away with it. :f_biggrin:
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Yeah, I agree with what you said.

      Keep in mind you are playing a Fast Fold game so here your stats are your image. Although this specific guy doesn't see it and might just be a random fish, a reg gets fed this info about you and will use it.

      If you continue with minraising SB, think about a 4bet/6bet jam range. That would make sense. When you minraise pre, he makes it small so you can click it back 4bet (or some small size) allowing him to 5bet without shoving. That way you can 6bet jam as a bluff sometimes (like you 3bet/5bet a hand like TT in SB vs BU with dynamics). The next benefit is that you risk a lot less with your bluffs. This also means you get called more often so my recommendation to not use trashy hands remains.

      This all seems really interesting but I think it's not necessary in order to crush NL25. If you play a solid game without extremely high bluff frequencies you will crush. It's human nature to be curious and/or not believe others so the more you bluff, the more people benefit from their curiousity. You have to do the opposite and be weighted towards value imo, even though you have some bluffs in your range as well.
    • DecMate
      DecMate
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 939
      Yeah just to add, when in the big blind you dont have a fast fold button until someone raises so they are definitely less likely to fold when it's SB raising (I'm constantly 3betting SB or calling it from BB)
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      very interesting :f_biggrin:

      yeah, i certainly try to keep track of my image - how long that reg has been around for and how i've been running in these sessions.

      i kinda feel like they'll call nearly 100% when i 4bet low so -> do it with a huge depolarized range? any reasonable broadways and a few suited connectors.

      i also think that it's definitely "easy" to crush nl25 by bluffing considerably less than optimal.
      i'm waaay overrolled for this limit though :D and relatively new to SH and tired of the terribly nitty stars zoom fullring dynamics, so i want to see what i can get away with. :f_biggrin:

      Originally posted by DecMate
      Yeah just to add, when in the big blind you dont have a fast fold button until someone raises so they are definitely less likely to fold when it's SB raising (I'm constantly 3betting SB or calling it from BB)
      yeah but i think that people still are more towards "wtf T6o, i fold" than "it's a cheap sb open, this guy seems to be quite active so let's play back somehow".
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Your last statement is true. I'm not saying stealing often from the SB can't be done but it's not good to make it a default imo because when you move up most players will start attacking your and have to give up your default of raising wide which will be hard if you make it your standard now.

      @4bet: yes, 4bet depolarized for value, flop a pair and cooler his T9s with ATs and such. :) That's when you get called quite often.. if you get called from time to time I wouldn't worry too much. I never had to because my 'bluff' 4bets were always ahead of them when I played NL25 so if you hand select carefully, so will yours.