IMO micro stakes cash games are to be avoided

    • elliotmack
      elliotmack
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      Joined: 01.06.2012 Posts: 51
      [FONT=comic sans ms][COLOR=blue] ok i have a few reasons as to why grinding out the painfully, bankroll degrading micro cash game stakes should be avoided.

      ive played poker now for about 2 years however only just begun to take online seriously. now during my initial sprouting of the online world i knew nothing about bankroll management stack strategies gap theory etc etc.

      however as my studies have expanded my abilities and understandings, i have begun to conclude that micro cash games are, IMO, the devils weapon to ruining your bankroll. you may agree or disagree.

      up until the last 3-6 months, i used to consistently try to grind out a profity multi tabling 3-5 micro stakes at the 2c/5c level. i consistently made profitable decisions however with the stakes not being high enough to dwindle any of the other micro stakes grinders you find that in the long run, you either make a minimal profit ( for aguements sake 4-5 dollars a week!) or you make a big loss. now i have two reasons. one as stated before is the fact the stakes are not substantial for anybody to fold. people are gambling at this level. and 2 you do not play your optimal hame because YOU are gambling.

      for my advice to anyone on a short bankroll or trying to grind there way up through the limits is to start on micro SNG tables. where the risk is much lower and you can win consistently if you are a winning player, keeping damages to a minimal and allowing yourselfg to take shots if you feel up to it to further increase your bankroll potential.

      if you have any theories or answers good or bad i will gladly read and offer my opinion

      happy grinding!!
  • 39 replies
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Well few bucks a week is an understatement. With my current project I have played 15K hands in Zoom PLO2 and won $80. With rakeback that goes over $100. That is 20 hours, which might be week for someone who plays every day.

      So when you THINK you make ONLY +EV decisions, and still win just 5 dollars a week at micros, you are wrong. You might make +EV decision, but they are backed up with -EV decisions.

      I really hate this aspect of poker, where players say that they can't win cos the opponents are so bad. I have never heard the same statement in any other competitive sport. And the fact is that the statement is just pure bullshit. What it means is that you can't adjust to opponents, and therefore you can't win money. And being a good poker players is about adjusting to the current situation and make good decision all the time.

      So look into the mirror, and stop making excuses.
    • TinoLaan
      TinoLaan
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      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,411
      one as stated before is the fact the stakes are not substantial for anybody to fold. people are gambling at this level.
      How is that a bad thing? If anything, it's one of the best things that could happen! Obviously you want to be playing against the bad players and the players that just come to gamble a bit. Those are the players that are going to make you the most money in the long run.

      I still don't get why people are complaining about having to play against bad players. In the end, you do want to make money playing poker, and the bad players are the people you're going to extract tons of money from.

      and 2 you do not play your optimal hame because YOU are gambling.
      That's just a fault on your part. First you say you continuously make profitable decisions, but now you're saying you're just gambling. Which one is it?

      In any case, gambling yourself is obviously a terrible thing, but that's completely within your own control. If you find yourself gambling a lot, you're just doing something wrong. The stakes you're playing have absolutely nothing to do with that.

      for my advice to anyone on a short bankroll or trying to grind there way up through the limits is to start on micro SNG tables. where the risk is much lower and you can win consistently if you are a winning player, keeping damages to a minimal and allowing yourselfg to take shots if you feel up to it to further increase your bankroll potential.
      no

      If you are a winning player in cash games, that's going to allow for a more consistent profit. Cash games offer the least variance, ST SNGs offer more variance, and MTTs offer the most variance.

      Of course, some people may simply prefer the SNG format. That's perfectly fine. But you are simply generalising things here. In general, cash games offer the least risk, because variance is lower. By using proper BRM in cash games in combination with setting limits for yourself when to stop, it's very easy to keep losses at a minimum if you play well. The same goes for any format, tbh.

      But just because you can't seem to beat the micro stakes cash games here because you find yourself gambling all the time, does not mean this holds true for everyone. That is purely your own doing. So you can either work on your (mental) game and try to beat these games, or you can, like you apparently have done, switch over to another format like SNGs.

      But don't pretend the games are unbeatable for everyone, just because you can't beat them. Because they're not.
    • NIVEKii
      NIVEKii
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      Joined: 01.01.2009 Posts: 1,097
      [quote]Originally posted by elliotmack
      [FONT=comic sans ms][/quote]
      NO.
    • elliotmack
      elliotmack
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      Joined: 01.06.2012 Posts: 51
      i understand that you do want to play with people who are willing to gamble and over the long run the variance does even itself out but for example the way i started with a 50 dollar br which in a week has gone to 200 just consistently 2 tabling a 2.25 sng format has earned me that.

      look im not saying the micro stakes are impossible but what i do say is that if you are on a short bankroll of like 50 dollars and then you play a 1c2c table for 100 bb then you give yourself very little allowance for a huge say 10bb downswing dont you think?

      i totally agree that the gambling players is who you want to play but would you be consistently happy if your raises with a premium hand got called by 6 players all the time? if you had AA your odds of winning drop significantly for example.

      i just think that i personally play well when people have a bit to lose rather than just a 5 dollar buy in thats all
    • Krishjanis
      Krishjanis
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      OP's signature is quite ironic.
    • gadget51
      gadget51
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      I would just like to add that I have built 4 bankrolls over 4 years from zero in freerolls (with like 10K seats and a 15c payout for 250th or so), moving to mainly nl4 full ring and finally nl4 6 max. I know my enemy, they are wild; having fun; gambling/drunk/egotistic and terrible players (mostly, not all) and this year I was losing at a horrendous rate until August, so I can run bad and play horrible as well still.
      I've won [approximately] in that time, about 16K and bought loads of stuff for the house and mrs gadget. My poker history is old hat now, but I would suggest one counter-argument is enough to dispel your theory.
      Oh and we have all heard; 'I think I'll move up to where they respect my raises.' ... and the consequences of such an action. Refrain from that one I suggest without the competence needed to back it up.

      I could write pages on this but have to go and Pokerstrategy have already done it.

      Best regards and if you aren't comfortable in cash games by all means move variants. I personally, will stick to gamblers, I don't like the idea of having a Pokerstrategy coach like pleno1 sitting opposite, my raises would probably get the same respect as at nl4 after 20 hands! :)


      Mal.
    • Krishjanis
      Krishjanis
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      Joined: 04.01.2010 Posts: 977
      Originally posted by gadget51
      we have all heard; 'I think I'll move up to where they respect my raises.' ...
      They will respect your raises by 3betting everything you love.
    • cufc37
      cufc37
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      Joined: 06.04.2012 Posts: 129
      i totally agree that the gambling players is who you want to play but would you be consistently happy if your raises with a premium hand got called by 6 players all the time? if you had AA your odds of winning drop significantly for example.


      Surely you'd just raise bigger with the premium hands on such a table to take advantage of loose callers. And surely you'd play plenty of speculative hands that can flop monsters and cash in on people playing top pair like the nuts.

      i started with a 50 dollar br which in a week has gone to 200 just consistently 2 tabling a 2.25 sng format has earned me that.


      Glad SNGs are treating you well, but remember that can easily change. I started with SNGs and almost gave up poker because I found the variance sick. I went up like 25BI in a couple of days, but then couldn't win a flip and hardly an 80/20 for a few days and was right back where I started. I think for beginners that's quite hard to take, and not to forget that most sites have 20% fee for the lowest buy ins which isn't easy to beat right off the bat.

      So glad I switched to cash where I find it's much easier to take advantage post flop rather than just shove it in pre-flop and hope your hand holds. Big respect to those that can handle the variance though!
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Funny thing is that if they don't respect your raises, why in the world are you raising as a bluff then?
    • elliotmack
      elliotmack
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      Joined: 01.06.2012 Posts: 51
      who said anything about bluffing i mean when you have a decent starting hand
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Well there is no need to start discussin poker ABC here. But when you put money in when you are ahead, isn't that a great thing?

      The single biggest reason why "I-think-I-am-a-good-poker-player" doesn't win money at micros is the fact that he doesn't adjust to opponents. He keeps playing that TAG ABC and just cbetting and bluffing calling stations. When opponents don't fold, you go to 100% value poker. It's that simple.

      Once again, stop making excuses and find a mirror. There are tons of players that crush even the smalles micros. So it's not impossible. It's super easy actually, once you are a good player that understands how the game works. So keep working. :)
    • fuzzyfish
      fuzzyfish
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      Joined: 12.01.2010 Posts: 862
      [quote]Originally posted by elliotmack
      [FONT=comic sans ms][COLOR=blue][/quote]When I saw this I got a bad feeling about this thread and the rest of the text just confirmed this.
    • elliotmack
      elliotmack
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      Joined: 01.06.2012 Posts: 51
      Maybe it is my TAG style that forces me to lose on the micros and be up further on thank you and I will work on this area of my game.

      The people here with thre comments just calm down I'm entitled to an opinion for god sake I never once said I was a winning player I just said I do well in the SNG tourneys.
    • arthurbentley
      arthurbentley
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      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 234
      Originally posted by elliotmack
      i totally agree that the gambling players is who you want to play but would you be consistently happy if your raises with a premium hand got called by 6 players all the time? if you had AA your odds of winning drop significantly for example.
      You need to play on ipoker. 2NL is a nit-fest there. No-one plays a hand unless it is pocket Kings/Aces, or Ace King. :s_mad:

      Give me a table of calling stations any day!! Not these freaking nits on ipoker. If everyone calls your pre-flop all-in with pocket Aces, you are getting 8-1 on your money, and (I believe) a 2-1 fav. Calling stations +EV.
    • MisClick
      MisClick
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      Joined: 30.05.2008 Posts: 1,186
      I disagree. I made my BR at the micros starting from 2NL and moving up. I have even played the last micro-level over-rolled. I think they are a great opportunity for learning poker cheaply.
    • Maloco87
      Maloco87
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      Joined: 30.01.2011 Posts: 514
      I know how you feel as I get like that all the time at the mocro stakes.

      I recently had to move back down to nl2 as nl5 was kicking my ass. (well i was partly kicking my own ass tbh) I am now back at nl5 and although im under rolled for it, im playing the same as I was back at nl2, which is get value from your big hands and if raised fold unless you have a good reason to continue.

      I was making the mistake that nl5 was different than nl2 and thinking I could make big bluffs to win pots, i don't do this at nl2 because whena player calls you down a with 2nd pair and wins at showdown you quickly learn at these limits to just play strong made hands and extract as much value out of your opponents as you can and then wait for the next opportunity.

      nl5 really is just the same even if the pots are slighly bigger (which is why i think i tried to bluff them a lot, I want that money!)

      Im still at a loss at nl5 but i know i will turn that around the more I play and the more I study. Holdem manager is a great help as well.

      Just watch out for me on stars in 2013 as I move through the limits. I will be starting a new blog for 2013 so you can look out for that in the near future.

      As for you comment on sng's they are the worst games to play online as they can just crush your bankroll imo, I don't mean MTT's as I do like to play these at least once a week to try and boast my bankroll but sng's are so high varience. I tilted quite a bit last month at nl5 and left myself with $5 but i had some fpp's that I used to win tourney $ and then used those to play hu sngs which I then turned into $25 I went back to playing nl2 and build my roll up to $50 again although i had two cashes in mtt's to help me out. I decided to try some sng's again and blew half my roll again. So i have decided that im best sticking to the cash games to build my bankroll as it is less of a risk. I can come and go as I please and can cut my losses and also quit while I am at my target profit for the day.

      Good luck to all of my fellow micro stake grinders how ever you decide what best suits you in the world of poker. It's not easy but thats just life in general. You have to work hard, study hard and play hard to get anywhere in this world.
    • vuciitis
      vuciitis
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      Joined: 19.02.2011 Posts: 1,314
      Hello!

      I have been having the same problem for a long time now as u mentioned above, so i switched to sng format games even i wanted to play cash games. As i get no fun any more playing sng games (6max hypers in my case) i am switching back to cash games and trying really hard to find the reason i cant beat them as much as i like. And i would like to believe, that i have finally found some rhythm for myself. I can give u some tips which i have found so far working out for me:

      First of all, surviving in micros is not about how much money u win, its all about how much u loose. I have read tons of posts here and ppl more often works on things how to earn money, but i think shutting down thouse little leaks we - beginners have is way more impotaint. Just take some session what u have played and look at thouse small ammounts of outcoming money u got there. Plenty of -0.04 up to -0.20 or so... and for what? u wana take a part in some multiway pot with connectors, u wana defend some shithand from blinds, u wana steal some with crap which u cbet after on some draw heavy board not thinking that it will not work if your loose oponent have even some sort of weak drawing hand. Playing tons of hands out of position were u are outplayed / outdraw. If u put all these LITTLE things togeather u will see that it just costs u insane ammounts of money compared to the stakes u play. I can bet it now feels like i am just laying some more crap on u, but no! Thouse leaks are there in your game as they are in most of micro players who are just a beginners as most of us are.

      Just think about it, getting profit is actually not that hard to get. U get premium hands enough to bet them / cbet pot and win it or go to showdown and get some. Why not just hold to it? But no, we want to be REAL poker players and bluff, play many hands and have tons of action. But sadly that costs all our profit because a)we are not ready to make ~80+% acurate desicions in thouse multiway / oop situations which costs money b)most of the PLAYS we make on other players will not work... even if the read is correct, u will not push out loose calling station out of hand with flush draw or some up and down straight draw, in most cases no matter how much will u bet. So why even bother to?!

      TAG style definitely is the way to play, because most oponents will pay off your made hands on flop by drawing their flushdraws and stuff even if u give them crazy odds.

      And the hardest thing for me is not to play spots which should be proffitable in theory but they just doesnt work. I try not to play non premium / non pocket pair hands out of position at all. Ofc thats not right, but i think avoiding the spots i am loosing money is the right play as long as i am a winning player. I just find ppl on NL2 betting so crazy that if i am not in control of the hand with position or made hand trying to get payd, i just give it up... And i dont see the reason why not to.

      One more thing i have found is tipical to micros- as ppl tend to draw way more as they should, u need to follow the board texture and betsizing even more. I find my self too greedy very often which leads to huge loss. As the logic says, if its a safe flop and u have like top two or a set with NO rainbow board, i suggest to keep pot small even u have the nuts, because your oponent will most likely to draw and often hit his draw and u will be in position were u have dag your own grave by making pot huge.

      I know its nothing new, but i just find my self often enough in these spots, that i suggest u to think about that too ;)
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
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      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      Originally posted by vuciitis
      TAG style definitely is the way to play, because most oponents will pay off your made hands on flop by drawing their flushdraws and stuff even if u give them crazy odds.

      [...]

      One more thing i have found is tipical to micros- as ppl tend to draw way more as they should, u need to follow the board texture and betsizing even more. I find my self too greedy very often which leads to huge loss. As the logic says, if its a safe flop and u have like top two or a set with NO rainbow board, i suggest to keep pot small even u have the nuts, because your oponent will most likely to draw and often hit his draw and u will be in position were u have dag your own grave by making pot huge.
      so which one is right, 1 or 2?
    • dannywratten
      dannywratten
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      Joined: 11.05.2010 Posts: 1,462
      Only skimmed through the thread, but has anyone told him to move up where they respect his raises?
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