[NL2-NL10] Bet or check/call with Kings?

    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Prima, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      Hero (SB): $10 (100 bb) 36/29/10.0/25/0/30
      BB: $10.18 (101.8 bb) 14/10/2.3/0.0/13/53
      UTG: $10.10 (101 bb)
      MP: $11.33 (113.3 bb)
      CO: $10 (100 bb)
      BTN: $6.08 (60.8 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with K K
      4 folds, Hero raises to $0.35, BB calls $0.25

      Flop: ($0.70) A T 7 (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.40, BB calls $0.40

      I bet because he could have draws like 89, flush draws here that pay me off. He has some Aces in his range too but I think protection is more important.

      Turn: ($1.50) Q (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.90, BB calls $0.90

      Sucks to be OOP. I bet again for the same reasons on flop. If I was IP should I check behind?

      River: ($3.30) J (2 players)
      Hero bets $1.90, BB folds

      Flush draw got there but can't check and let him bluff me off with his floats. I decide to bet/fold.

      With an Ace on the flop should I be playing this way, bet/bet/bet. Usually I go for a check/call trying to induce bluffs from weaker hands and not paying off Aces by betting myself but I've been told I can't play WAWB here, so?
  • 7 replies
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Flop cbet is fine, and since BB has position he can call lighter. FDs, Tx, JJ, even some other pairs and OESD/Gutshots.

      The turn cbet is a bit thiner because villain will most likely fold a lot of the hands we beat except some draws. Considering he is tight we can also check/fold this turn because I can only see him betting an Ax (and not all) and some combo draws.

      As played, the river brings in the FD and since he hasn't raised two streets his range is draws that hit (89 or fd), and a weaker Ax hand.

      Can you expect him to call a weak ace here after how the board came down?

      You said you don't want to let him bluff you with his floats (on the river), but what floats can he have after calling both flop and turn?

      And your question regarding an Ax. If you valuebet KK then why not valuebet an ace the same? On the river, with Ax we can simply check fold.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      This is one of those classic 2nd pair on semiwet flop spots.

      In position, I would check back by default, but I may find a thin value bet vs some.

      OOP I think betting may be better but checking is certainly fine though you would have to play guessing games a lot.

      You should also know whether you can bet/call or bet/fold on the Flop. Against someone who raises a polarized range (meaning only 2pairs+ and draws), you could bet/call simply because the relative hand strength of KK and AK are the same. Vs someone who raises a depolarized range including some weak top pairs like A2, you should bet/fold.

      Turn: I don't like this bet on the Turn. I think we should now c/f or c/c. We are ahead of flush draws and maybe he just bets QJ or KJ when checked to? And he could also have 89s and J9s or some other bluffs.

      River: I give up now.

      Essentially what happened is that you completely turned KK into a bluff. I don't like it, simply because you can turn so many worse hands into a bluff. KK is a hand that cannot really go for so many streets of value, and it is too strong to turn into a bluff. If you let it check down, you'll simply beat QX and TX a huge% of the time
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Can you expect him to call a weak ace here after how the board came down?


      I don't expect weaker aces to call now. I'm infact trying to make them fold. But as pointed out I've turned my hand into a bluff here which is wrong.

      You said you don't want to let him bluff you with his floats (on the river), but what floats can he have after calling both flop and turn?


      Just random bull shit people bluff with on the river because they try to represent a flush or a strong hand on the river when you check at these limits. People who think check=giving up so time to attack.

      On the river I'm actually going for very thin value from a straight 89 which might want to see a showdown and not bet but might call a bet.

      River: I give up now.


      Are you saying c/f?
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      Originally posted by maheepsangari
      Just random bull shit people bluff with on the river because they try to represent a flush or a strong hand on the river when you check at these limits. People who think check=giving up so time to attack.
      :f_eek: :f_eek:

      so what is this "random bullshit" that they are floating two streets with?
      and if you think that he has such a wide "bs range", why not c/c?

      Originally posted by maheepsangari
      Are you saying c/f?
      why not?
      even a lot of random weak lolfloat hands just somehow got there on the river, don't you think?

      [late edit]
      i actually didn't notice that we rivered a straight. :facepalm:

      that said, i think bet/fold is best. i wouldn't expect him to just randomly turn something into a bluff (so that we b/c or c/c are better)
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Originally posted by Tomaloc

      [late edit]
      i actually didn't notice that we rivered a straight. :facepalm:

      that said, i think bet/fold is best. i wouldn't expect him to just randomly turn something into a bluff (so that we b/c or c/c are better)
      I think mbml also missed that I had a straight. Giving up is too weak IMO so had to bet/fold. I didn't want to check and be faced by a large river bet.
    • confidant91
      confidant91
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 02.04.2011 Posts: 5,550
      Hi,
      on river we play bet-fold for thin value from two pairs combinations.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      Oh yes we hav a straight so bet fold halfpot. Sry abt the confusion.