poker rooms and their working process(RNG,security,tests)

    • janushr
      janushr
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      Joined: 29.08.2008 Posts: 261
      hello,i am really eager to get some more info on this subject,as i think it consider every player involved in the game...so,we know poker rooms use RNG to provide us with the game...i am not really into how this works,as its poker rooms secret apparently...i will use one example and would love an answer from STARS representative...as they send me mail,containg their RNG check and other,i went there and check it out...as i understand,on CIGITEL(stars security provider)page clearly stated that they recive equipment and instruction from STARS how to perform this test and in what circumstances they should test it...so,that imply(not sure now is it wroten)that CIGITEL NEVER TEST STARS equipment while working???further more,i would like to know how often they make such test or does they do it at all often??next,i tried numerous times to get any results from those tests,and get refused every time...not that i can check it,but i am sure there is enough of math whizzes here to check those...next,i am interested why those tests are hidden from public(if they perform any at all??),as those public pays for all that...after all,all STARS money comes from PLAYERS,isnt it??do we have a right to know more??next,as that STARS wouldnt be offended as the only target,i would like the same from FTP(ITS STARS,but hey),IPOKER and ONGAME...as they are the biggest networks out there...smaller i am not interested,thank you...gennerally,i would like to know more about whole process,and i think that we all are entitled to answers...at least the ones whom are interested into that...so,its not about rigged poker,its about proccesses whom makes it safe and secure:) just to make sure that all is correct,nothing else,as a lots of people putting a lots of money every day on poker...and for you all whom will award me with tin foil hat,i thank you in advance for that;) so,poker rooms representatives,its your ball...thanks for answers and all valuable contribution to topic:)
  • 47 replies
    • alphabeat
      alphabeat
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      Joined: 30.04.2010 Posts: 728
      Revealing details about the RNG tests can compromise it as people may find ways to break it. Thats the reason they never release the tests, and we have to be satisfied that they get a third party certification
    • ExternalUseOnly
      ExternalUseOnly
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      Joined: 30.01.2010 Posts: 3,373
      Hello :)

      I've never looked very deeply into it to be fair. You've probably been to this page already but you can view the pokerstars integrity page here: http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/features/security/ it doesn't really answer your questions but its the best i can give you right now.

      I like to think that if there was anything dodgy going on, too many people would have to know about it and someone would have crossed someone and pissed them off enough for them to let the rest of the world know about it. Just like in the movies :D It may make me naive but so be it. If its rigged i just hope they shift me on to the list of names they let be winners soon :)


      Hopefully someone else can drop by and answer some of your questions a little more directly :)

      All the best
      Carl
    • janushr
      janushr
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      Joined: 29.08.2008 Posts: 261
      alphabeat;as i understand their statment,i find there a problem...as if you give this task for independent third party for certification,i think they should test those in real enviroment,other i really dont see a point of sending equipment and explenation how to test it...IMHO,there is too much at stakes.,that they dont allow people to enter and check it while running...it also implies that they make just ONE test AND THATS IT...further on,its just isnt their concern...so,that also means that they DONT make any tests every now and then,let me STARS poker representative correct me if i am wrong...so,what their test stand for then??once a year??and beetwen...listen,i am not into RNG and how it works,i am into that that results are proper.,correct and without tempering(in my case people overrun me with last crap:( )in favor of somebody...next,regarding those,when having AA vs any two,lets say you have 82% vs 18%...so,we should lose every 5 pot vs rag...my problem is that i win lousy small pots,and when comes to a large one,i am entitled only to suckout(in some deep run in some tournies),so it would intrest me also how somebody can check that also,its also important how many chips(i play tournies,not cash)you get on the end...all i want is FAIR GAME,nothing more...beside i never play any big stakes,so its not so much about big monies...all the people screaming about SKILLS,and later i just see bingo players winning a lot with such crap,its unbelivable...smart guy once said,its cause people play wider and with more crap,thats why you get so much bad beats from such crappy hands in micro stakes...OK...it still doesnt explain WHY so many bad players tend to get lucky,not just vs me...it honestly makes me puke:( i think its bad for the game,as well...then let them adveritse BINGO AND LOTTO PLAY,NOT SKILL PLAY...my only explenation is that things arent correct..evidence??i dont have any,its just my personal impression...an NO,i dont lose money...i only like the game and mental challenge,and want to see a proper fair game...further more,its clearly stated at STARS page that they use ONLY 256 COMBO(not sure,somewhere around that)from posiblle xxxxxxx COMBO...math wizs know better...
    • janushr
      janushr
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      Joined: 29.08.2008 Posts: 261
      carl,perhapse you have a point,but as old saying says;where is smoke,there is a fire...thanks for any help,really appriciated:) but,with so much money at stakes,i feel that people and players deserve a right to know for sure...esspeccially WHEN THEY PAY FOR IT...as i am sure,that money STARS,for example have,doesnt come from govermant or social wellfair;) and further more,i am suprised that nobody before raised that question,as it concern all involved in this industry,even me,the smalles fish in the food chain :f_biggrin:

      and i will like to get this answers PUBLIC,so that we all see what is going on...

      and if there isnt any answers,judge for yourself...

      i will say something more about that RNG...i dont say its rigged,what i say is;its a MAN made machine and its run by PEOPLE,right??it isnt run by some aliens from outer space :D

      so,if those is true,there is always a posibillity to make some things...somebody said that they make too much money,they wouldnt RISK IT...if you or me,or somebody else from this forum,cant obtain evidence thats all correct,who can say for sure that all is correct???example...lets say that AA you make 73% instead of 82%,how you can provve that???and then try to count the number what comes if this is possiblle,what somebody gets when numbers arent correct...

      and last,OFC...all people say,and STARS and other poker rooms,;WE DONT PROFIT FROM IT,ONLY PLAYERS DO...its true...but,if a weaker players suckout when they shouldnt,they win money for playing longer...better players turns another tourny and chalk it to variance...on the end,MORE RAKE AND MORE PROFIT FOR POKER ROOMS...thats my main concern...

      bit perhapse off topic,but still in the around area,without any accusations,i just say what is possiblle...and we cant see tests and we dont know if they do tests???LMAO...so,we dont have any reason for any suspicions,right??
    • alphabeat
      alphabeat
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      Joined: 30.04.2010 Posts: 728
      I understand your conundrum, but as externaluse corrctly pointed out (aye, cast me into the naive boat), too many people would have to know to make it work. Seeing as there's about 150,000 people at any given time on stars, how much compute power do you think would be needed to rig games?

      Even assuming its possible, from an algo perspective, would it be worth it? As you said, you play tourneys. PS neither gets extra rake from rigging your pots, nor does it even make sense to do so, since you're playing in the small tourneys. Think about it, would it make sense to rig a 45 man $1 tourney in which they make about 5 dollars from? Regardless of who wins?

      When you speak of fairness, and talk of your winning small pots and losing big ones, do a check on your database and look at scenarios where you sucked out. Its easy to fall prey to confirmation bias and only remember situations in which we were the victim, but you need to look at the other side as well
    • janushr
      janushr
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      Joined: 29.08.2008 Posts: 261
      3.0 Validity
      This determination of statistical randomness does not extend beyond the software and hardware
      components examined. These results pertain only to systems composed of the hardware and software
      that were tested when they are operated in the manner described to Cigital during the evaluation

      this...that is what i mean,and they clearly say that they test ONLY what stars send them to dulles,virginia...and i am certain that STARS servers isnt at dulles,virginia :f_cool:

      so,what this means???you tested something outside the live enviroment???to be sure how its works and is it working properly...??STARS representative,please,ANSWER THIS...
    • janushr
      janushr
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      Joined: 29.08.2008 Posts: 261
      VERY SIMPLE...i am a NIT,A ROCK or what ever you want to name me...so its pretty hard to suckout on someone w 42 when you dont play such hands???i didnt say RIG,thats your words... :f_p:

      ofc,they wouldnt make it obvius for people to see it easy...but as i understand,there is a 9 points allowed for numbers to be distorted,so in those numbers,its all allowed to them...honestly i dont understand this 9 point distorsion...but i do understand that there is a plenty of space for something to make wrongdoing...if all is correct,IMHO,tests and results would be made every day...obv,they dont do that...they dont even post any results,all you get when ask such question is:CIGITAL verification where say this above what i mentioned....and that isnt enough alarming for you??what should they wrote;yes,stars and others(there is others,STARS isnt alone)make fault play...then you would suspect something??this all is just a conversation,we are trying to build a conclusion using facts there exist...and for those that we cant reach or obtain or know...there isnt a way to be 100% sure...also,i dont play poker from yesterday :f_biggrin:

      also i wanted just to state that IF weaker player wins(it happens that i see a lots of those)that 45 mans,he gets more funds to spend...simple as that...so,how you can prove when you suckout w AA from QT in large pot on bubblle from some donkey??you lost and off to another tourney...he wins and get more funds to play...who can profit from that??ME???

      also,my personal results and data is open for anyone who wants to check,NP...i know that OLD story;you remeber the beats,but forget the wins...all that doesnt matter when you suckout in large bubble pot holding premium vs donk who push any two...and wins all smaller pots until then...

      or ITS VARIANCE,you just need volume to iron that out :f_biggrin:

      and keep paying rake along the way...
    • janushr
      janushr
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      Joined: 29.08.2008 Posts: 261
      and yes,STARS AND OTHERS,they keep their facilities on some forsaken island,and ask for american licence??i see no problems with CIGITAL to be in dulles,virginia...why they dont have their offices at USA or england??IMHO,those govermant wont be tolerating that what isle of mann govermant takes...simple,can someone answer HOW MUCH revenue STARS pay to govermant of isle of mann???and we even dont know where their servers are??i am sure thats the STARS are existing somwhere far away just cause of taxes,nothing else :f_biggrin:

      it doesnt matter that isle of mann is small state,i even dont know where it is,TBH...but,on my expirience,and i am 36,you dont go somehere far away just for that,as if they would work in USA or ENGLAND or someother country,they MUST PAY TAXES,anyway...all this doesnt help to get an impression that all is correct,i am sorry...at least not for me...

      all the impression i get,is that they DO EVERYTHING in their power,to make sure NOBODY comes and check it out,for real...

      also,STARS representative,can you clarify us under what laws you are running your firm??who is in charge if something goes wrong in your case...
    • janushr
      janushr
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      Joined: 29.08.2008 Posts: 261
      i am pretty sure we are going perhapse away from the topic,i would really like just for STARS and OTHERS representative to answer some of those,its their job,isnt it???so,let get some real info,i hope :f_biggrin:
    • ExternalUseOnly
      ExternalUseOnly
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      Joined: 30.01.2010 Posts: 3,373
      Im a little confused now as to what the question actually is :D

      As already stated above info will not be released by Stars or a Stars rep because any info however small could be rly useful to someone who wants to take advantage of it.

      So why would you think that PokerStars don't want anyone to check their RNG if like you say you don't think it's rigged. What other reason would they have in your opinion to not get it checked?

      also,STARS representative,can you clarify us under what laws you are running your firm??who is in charge if something goes wrong in your case..
      Also what do you mean by something goes wrong, wrong with what? :)
    • janushr
      janushr
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      Joined: 29.08.2008 Posts: 261
      first question is regarding CIGITEL and thier statment under numebr 3.validation...i would like clarification of that,please...

      as i am prolly a fish,its not so rigged,i would call it adjusted a little :f_biggrin:

      i dont know why they dont have checks every now and then,and then public publish info that all is correct,when all is correct...the same reason that they dont publish/do any test,i really dont know...you must admitt that looks at least a bit shaddy...on question one is also an answer perhapse,why STARS wont let third party certificator into their facilities???i dont know the answer,if i do,i wouldnt post it here...

      with wrong,i mean in case of any dispute,what are legal bounderies and where and what laws apply,i dont presume anything:) just saying that prolly some laws from some island what we never heard before apply,and not some legal govermant,as USA OR ENGLAND,for me it just look like they are prepared for just a case...

      as i never play BIG,i couldnt lose any BIG,so i am perfectly safe in that wiew...i only mind HARD when i get suckedout with some trash from some donk with most stupidiest play possiblle...those players WILL NEVER IN ANY CASE HAVE MY RESPECT...and i will always adress them as DONKS...
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
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      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,926
      Hey janushr,

      Have you spoken to the Poker rooms about your concerns at all?

      They would be in a better place to deal with these concerns :)



      Regards,
      Gary
    • janushr
      janushr
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      Joined: 29.08.2008 Posts: 261
      hey,gary:) ofc i tried to contact them,i am prolly on their BLACK LIST :f_biggrin:

      all i recive is their CIGITEL conformation,and i would really like an answer,not just for me,for whole community to see,about part 3.VALIDATION...that would be a good start:) they said that they wont have any further communications about this...as they consider this closed deal...

      is that hard to answer how your verification firm stated on their pages??that they NEVER actually test their machines while running...i think that doesnt need answers,but i am still interested into thier answer...after all,PLAYERS pay their salaries,arent they??or stars start to get donations from charity,all of sudden....
    • ExternalUseOnly
      ExternalUseOnly
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      Joined: 30.01.2010 Posts: 3,373
      Originally posted by janushr
      first question is regarding CIGITEL and thier statment under numebr 3.validation...i would like clarification of that,please...
      I really can't help you with this part


      i dont know why they dont have checks every now and then,and then public publish info that all is correct,when all is correct...the same reason that they dont publish/do any test,i really dont know...you must admitt that looks at least a bit shaddy...on question one is also an answer perhapse,why STARS wont let third party certificator into their facilities???i dont know the answer,if i do,i wouldnt post it here...
      Probably because people don't care when things are going well people will only care when things aren't what they're supposed to be which is when they will tell us. Its like the news on TV they don't say "Todays top stories, the small town of Sunnyville experienced no problems today, in other news Mrs Smith of south London got the train to work this morning and arrived on time!"

      with wrong,i mean in case of any dispute,what are legal bounderies and where and what laws apply,i dont presume anything:) just saying that prolly some laws from some island what we never heard before apply,and not some legal govermant,as USA OR ENGLAND,for me it just look like they are prepared for just a case...
      They have rules they must follow set by whoever grants them their licence (not that it worked too well with the AGCC and FTP) in this case its The IGC: http://www.gov.im/gambling/ I'm not sure which countries laws they must follow, i assume although i may be wrong that each country they operate in they must follow the laws for that country like with FTP even though it was based in Ireland they broke US laws
    • janushr
      janushr
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      Joined: 29.08.2008 Posts: 261
      i must agree with that,i would rather play poker then wrote this here...and TBH,if i didnt expirience all this(mostly at FTP,not STARS),i wouldnt say a word...but when i start to play and turn 4 tables and get suckout on each one with better hand,i immidiatlly turns their software OFF...and i dont play...

      and i play smallest stakes,and drop to even smallest possiblle,and still same thing...i didnt start to play yesterday,i think that i am better then most players,at least at micro levels :f_biggrin:

      but still,that doesnt change anything regarding what i wroted,and what says at their pages,all people need is just to take a look and see what is wroten...i also didnt look until those crap happening...

      also,must admit,that STARS are formidable when comes to cashout and all other related stuff,not considering play and RNG,i take my hat(even if i dont have 1;)

      you get cashout i like 15 minuts,other rooms takes 15 days,thats also true...

      all i want is FAIR GAME,not allowing constantly to people suckout on me with worst trash imaginable,and this considering that i play few $ buyins,we arent talking big bucks here :f_biggrin:

      as i say before,i dont want to discuss rigged,but impression that i am getting,is far from FAIR...ALL I WANT IS TO ENJOY THE GAME...i honestly cant belive that i am possiblle to get so many suckouts in short time...then,ofc,i TILT(i am human;) and spew all the rest of chips...and i stop playing...and start wroting...i come so far,i even tried to contact all those gaming comitiees and all whom is neccessery,and its not excluded that i will persue that also later...TBH,its not on me...but you arent going to steal from me and get some guy with trash to win...then we come to question...SKILLS??what for,when they will determine instead of me,when i would lose(or their RNG will)...if it comes to legislation in states,you can be bettin i am wroting to congress...to see if this is a SKILL game or not...
    • janushr
      janushr
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      Joined: 29.08.2008 Posts: 261
      so,my concern isnt about losing money...my concern is about enjoying the GAME...i dont think abot myself as some PRO or phil,patrick,gus...i play smallest stakes and really like the game...i am happy for my every success...i also lose,quit often,so i really dont need to have more suckouts on top of that...TBH,i always had better game at stars then ftp...as i feel now,i will rarly play there...as simple,i cant get anything going there...whats that,i know to play at stars,but at ftp i am loser???LMAO...

      another remark,its clearly stated at STARS pages that they use 249 combo out of xxxxxxx,so its not really poker,its ACTION PACK GAME where they even out the odds,so on end we are all playing BINGO...i even get answers from them that any two cards have equal chances of winning???so,that means that i hold AA,and guy have 24,and we have same chances of winning the pot???who is crazy here???SKILL???dont make me laugh....

      i mean they said preflop,not on community cards...
    • alphabeat
      alphabeat
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      Joined: 30.04.2010 Posts: 728
      Hehe, I like an impassioned rant, even if I don't necessarily agree with you. Though I have no idea what you're talking about when you say 249 out of xxxx. Could you link me to that?

      When they say any 2 cards can win (they'll never ever say 2 hands have an equal chance, unless the rep is joking), it just to keep the recreational players in! Its the oldest saying in poker, and quite a good marketing line, if you ask me

      EDIT: searched the web for it. Chill bro: it isn't 249 combos its 249 bits of entropy. Ie, a 249 letter word, where each word represents a deck combination. Wolfram alpha says thats 9*10^74, ie, 9 followed by 74 zeroes!Those many hands will never be played ever, so I think we're in the clear...
    • janushr
      janushr
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      Joined: 29.08.2008 Posts: 261
      hey,i already stated i am no math wizz :D i saw that 249 combo,tbh really dont understand that fully how it works...all i want is that people dont suckout so much on me,and very simple,i play tight range,almost always only premiums,so its basicclly always a chance to lose with weaker hand and some rag...i cant counter that,as i dont play 24,t5,Q2...or hand on ONGAME,first hand...KK UTG...make it 60,reg makes it 100 on UTG+1 and 3 callers...so i shove my kings...reg shows QQ and another fish is calling w QJo...and flop...is QJ5xx...LMAO...what are odds for that??I REALLY DONT LIKE IT!!!!!he finds ONLY Q in the deck,and fish also finds a J???and that is SKILLS??I think its too much...i have numerous examples like this,and it doesnt matter if this is 1$ or 1000$,its a game of poker...and he deserve a SLAP w QQ vs my KK,or isnt he???its FAIR that i get another suckout,yes??ITS CRAP...and this only helps my impression that something isnt right as it should be...if i cant win situation like this normally,when should i win??to just gamble with any two,like the rest of idiots??i WOULDNT PLAY POKER RATHER THEN EXPIRIENCE BULLSHIT LIKE THIS...yes,it can happens occassionally,but when i have 6 out of 10 results like this,i should play more,even out the variance and pay more rake???NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS!!!!!!!!i play poker for more then 4 years and i must admitt i always see something fishy going on,and NO,THERE ISNT SKILL THATS MOST IMPORTANT,AND I HATE WHEN THEY ALL ADVERTSISE SKILL GAME,AND YOU START PLAYING AND SUDDENLLY YOU ARE IN THE BINGO LAND...and until i see that when i HARD dominating someone,that i crash his soul,instead that i get suckouts,perhapse we would come to talk about SKILLS...and i dont see this day coming in like a million years...and NO,that wasnt a joke about any two have equal chances...i will try to search for that,but i have like a 5000 stars mails stored,perhepse i can still find it...
    • ExternalUseOnly
      ExternalUseOnly
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      Joined: 30.01.2010 Posts: 3,373
      What size hand sample do you have? Perhaps filter your hands to show only AA or only KK and see what % of the time you have actually won/lost with them. When you win with those hands you expect to win. When you lose it's a shock that's why your brain tends to remember the losses more than the wins because they are irregular but THEY DO HAPPEN. Say you get your hand in with 80% equity you will still lose 1 in every 5 times, thats quite a lot of times and there is no memory just because you have lost 4 in a row doesn't mean you are guarenteed to win the next one. In fact you can lose 100 times in a row and it doesn't mean you have any right to win the next hand. This doesn't mean the room isn't playing fair it just means you need a bigger hand sample to see the results accurately.