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Confusing instructions in SNG strategy

    • ramadas
      ramadas
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.09.2011 Posts: 462
      I don't know what to listen to.

      On one hand in starting hand table it is said you need to use only premium hands in early and middle phase of tournament (How to play before the flop
      by Michael) because lost chips are more valuable than earned ones and you just wait for late phase and then there is

      How do You Play Speculative Hands?
      by shakin65
      where it is said that:

      Speculative hands are hands like suited connectors (78s) and small pairs (44). These hands aren't very good on their own, but you can win big pots when you hit the flop well.

      This is why you only play speculative hands in the early phase of a SnG. Your stack is very large in relation to the size of the blinds, which means the ratio between possible winnings and costs of seeing the flop is very high. You can also play speculative hands in the middle phase of a tournament if the right conditions are fulfilled.


      So are they different strategies? First one seems TAG and second one is more LAGGY. But according to math lost chips are more valuable than earned ones or not?
  • 13 replies
    • ipeaceonu
      ipeaceonu
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.06.2007 Posts: 232
      Times have changed, playing only premiums and having a good push\fold game worked a year or more ago. These days everyone knows they should play tight early and shove wide late game blah blah blah. Now there are much better ways to exploit players playing this type of strategy. Remember, if everyone is playing a certain way then you need to be playing the opposite to exploit their style.
    • yankomania
      yankomania
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.10.2010 Posts: 123
      • 29.11.2012, 22:53
      • This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by yankomania: 29.11.2012 22:54.
      It all depends on your post flop skills. At the beginning of your poker career of course it's better to play tight solid game not to play every second hand and think that if flop is 233r and if you have 44 you have the nuts. Or ir you have 67s at the river you will be giving away all your chips at busted flash draw. Solid TAG style maybe is too slow for nowadays poker, but those speculative hands I would suggest to play only if you have some decent post flop skills and your chip stack allows that.

      Best of luck at the tables,

      yankomania :f_biggrin:
    • ghaleon
      ghaleon
      Black
      Joined: 17.10.2007 Posts: 5,964
      • 29.11.2012, 23:05
      • This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by ghaleon: 29.11.2012 23:06.
      Chips lost are always more valuable in tournament unless we are in HU phase or it is winner takes all game. Well also in big field tournament there is close to none difference in values.

      Only playing premium hands is kind of "rule" that I would only suggest for someone beginning poker and sng being the first contact to it. E.g. if you have decent experience from micro cash and have decent success you probably know something about set mining and postflop play. If that is case you can alter from those ABC lines as long as you have understanding why you do it.

      Basic preflop charts are meant to be kind of protective so that making big postflop mistakes is less likely. E.g. if you end up postflop with hands like AT+, KQ or 88+ it is much less likely to do those errors than compared to hands like JTs or KTo.
    • ramadas
      ramadas
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.09.2011 Posts: 462
      Originally posted by ipeaceonu
      Times have changed, playing only premiums and having a good push\fold game worked a year or more ago. These days everyone knows they should play tight early and shove wide late game blah blah blah. Now there are much better ways to exploit players playing this type of strategy. Remember, if everyone is playing a certain way then you need to be playing the opposite to exploit their style.
      So you are saying that Pokerstrategy articles are outdated? This same idea about ever changing poker metagame I got from The Raiser's Edge - Tournament-Poker Strategies for Today's Aggressive Game by Elky.

    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      • 29.11.2012, 23:26
      • This post has been edited 3 time(s), it was last edited by Th334: 29.11.2012 23:29.
      2 ramadas,

      Nice chart :) I think you missed the main point people were saying. PS articles are not outdated (if poker articles can be outdated at all). The main point was that absolute beginners and experienced players are suggested to play differently (this makes sense, doesn't it?).

      When you have learned the poker rules 15 minutes ago, you don't want to play hands that require decent postflop skills. Only because you don't have these skills, not because it's always -EV. If you carry on improving your skills, you'll find out that with the right conditions you can break almost every rule you were following as a beginner.

      But it by no means infers that Beginner strategy articles should include these fancy moves. This would be a straight way to the empty bankroll. Start simple, tight, strict and clear game. This will be enough for your first limit or until the time you have more experience.

      That's what people were saying :f_cool:
    • MoonrakerJ
      MoonrakerJ
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.11.2012 Posts: 9
      • 13.12.2012, 17:17
      • This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by MoonrakerJ: 13.12.2012 17:41.
      So, in a nuthsell, because a flop with speculative hands is less likely to be favourable we need a plan B if we are going to play them profitably?

      And a basic form of plan B is the continuation bet?
    • AwaysRemember
      AwaysRemember
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.11.2010 Posts: 188
      Plan B is to remember there is FOLD button, you missed - no need to go broke
    • MoonrakerJ
      MoonrakerJ
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.11.2012 Posts: 9
      Yet basic strategy articles tell us that under certain conditions we can play a continuation bet even if we don't hit top pair on the flop?
    • ipeaceonu
      ipeaceonu
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.06.2007 Posts: 232
      • 13.12.2012, 18:32
      • This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by ipeaceonu: 13.12.2012 18:35.
      Originally posted by ramadas
      Originally posted by ipeaceonu
      Times have changed, playing only premiums and having a good push\fold game worked a year or more ago. These days everyone knows they should play tight early and shove wide late game blah blah blah. Now there are much better ways to exploit players playing this type of strategy. Remember, if everyone is playing a certain way then you need to be playing the opposite to exploit their style.
      So you are saying that Pokerstrategy articles are outdated? This same idea about ever changing poker metagame I got from The Raiser's Edge - Tournament-Poker Strategies for Today's Aggressive Game by Elky.

      Real late response to this, RL things get in the way.

      I wasn't saying they are outdated, they will still work, but the effectiveness of the push/fold strategy has been diluted by the fact that even most recreational players now know that they have to play tight early and shove wide late game (obv there are still the 70% vpip guys we all love, just fewer of them these days).

      With more regs in the game and more people who have some idea of what they are doing this will eat into the attainable ROI from the older "push/fold" strategies. You will see that from looking up regs in your games and seeing that most do not have big roi's anymore and if they do then you will see that they are the ones that have adapted.

      Learning the "tight" strategy is a perfect way to get into these games, however do not think that ones you master this that the job is done.
    • feursturm
      feursturm
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.04.2011 Posts: 31
      Very interesting reply ipeaceonu. Have noticed from watching a friend play SNG'S recently that more people are familiar with the stay tight early, push/fold late strategy, even at the micros...and it does seem harder to get in the money (probably as a result of what you say, in that more people are becoming familiar with the same strategy).

      With regard to what you say about exploiting this method. Any chance you could expand more on the topic or give some pointers as to where to find more info on the subject? Would understand if you have an edge yourself at the moment and don't want to say too much.

      Are PS planning on publishing any material on it?
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      You guys mean that we need to re-adjust our articles? What I will suggest is to loosen up in the early-mid stages to gain extra chips due to our postflop advantage, improve the push/fold and steal-re-steal dynamics. Add some 3bet/4bet bluff vs regs and some other tools like limp/shove vs aggro opponents in the blinds, etc etc. Games are getting tough for everybody and if you guys want to get better- it's mostly you who need to work on it. I will suggest posting hands f.e. This has been the most helpful tool for me for the last 1 year. Still-micros are very, very beatable if you get to watch most of our sng material. If there are any updates or new articles coming that I know off- I will let you know : )
    • Targetme
      Targetme
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.05.2009 Posts: 1,888
      That chart just blew my mind. Ive always adjusted to lags by being a calling station :f_biggrin:
    • CRI4BRA
      CRI4BRA
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2008 Posts: 154
      Originally posted by ramadas
      Originally posted by ipeaceonu
      Times have changed, playing only premiums and having a good push\fold game worked a year or more ago. These days everyone knows they should play tight early and shove wide late game blah blah blah. Now there are much better ways to exploit players playing this type of strategy. Remember, if everyone is playing a certain way then you need to be playing the opposite to exploit their style.
      So you are saying that Pokerstrategy articles are outdated? This same idea about ever changing poker metagame I got from The Raiser's Edge - Tournament-Poker Strategies for Today's Aggressive Game by Elky.

      that's too advanced for this topic

      if you can apply what's on that image you're losing time playing anything less than 100$ buyin

      that picture is NOT for games where you have no fold equity at all e.g. The Micros.

      unfortunately real poker is played where every player really feels losing $$ if they get out of the tourney