SH preflop advice needed

    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Hi all,

      Hasenbraten's article inspired me to try what SH is. To be honest, I was a bit overwhelmed with the amount of action, though, maybe it just was my table :)

      The sad thing is, I think I don't understand some preflop nuances...and without a good preflop it's a bit of a waste of money to play poker. When I sat at the table, I started to panic immediately, because I got KQs from SB and there was sth like a min-raise followed by one or two cold-callers :D My brain just boiled up and I decided to fold.

      I would really like to hear some advice from experienced short-handers :) The questions are very basic (btw, we are playing micro limits):

      1) Limp. What do we limp? Nothing? That's the impression I got after reading 1,5 articles about SH preflop that I found on PS. I mean, even with suited connectors in a late position with 2 players already limped before us? Don't we even complete anything? Here's a quote:

      Originally posted by MiiWiin:
      An open limp is usually a sign of a weak player. If a good player wants to play a hand, he open raises. Anyone acting behind him is more likely to 3-bet.

      If we really try not to limp at all, does anyone knows why? It's always good to know the reason, not just follow the rule blindly. Or if we can (over)limp, could someone tell me when it's a good idea?

      2) 3-bets, 4-bets, re-steals. When we are re-raising for value, it's more or less clear. However, not that much when we play so called deceptive hands.

      So, if we bluff a re-raise, do we use the same category of hands (deceptive) for all three cases? I.e., suited connectors, small pockets, and suited aces.

      I understand that f.e. wheel suited aces might be better in 4-betting than the rest, because we block an ace and our opponent will less likely have a monster (and won't shove preflop), but overall, do we use only these three groups for any preflop action that is not for value? (perhaps because these groups are rarely dominated in 3-bet pots, in contrast to broadway)

      3) Isolation. To begin with, I decided to isolate with middle aces, pockets like 66+, and maybe sth like KQ, depending on my position / opponent / image / etc etc etc :) As an average estimate, how does it sound, fine?

      Thanks so much! I hope it's better than flooding the hand review forum with dozens of hands filled with basic preflop questions :)
  • 7 replies
    • elchipriota
      elchipriota
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2012 Posts: 438
      Hi Th,

      I can hardly be considered experienced on SH but I have been playing 6MAX speed poker only recently so I can give you my view.

      I tend to be quite tight UG as in a usuall game and I open with A9s+, ATo+, KQs+, 88+.

      In micros and especially on speed most people are very tight preflop so we want to exploit that from late positions.

      From Cutoff I will be raising any two high cards, any ace or pair and midlle suited connectors.

      From the button (in micro games only) my range can get wider and reach up to 80% when my stats say I can exploit the blinds.

      I watched a very nice video recently and the trainer said something about 6max I really liked and its even more importand than in a fullring game.

      "Initiative plus position=money"

      Therefore, I will never open the game with a call except if there is a raise behind me and I will flat that. I feel raising is much more +Ev than calling.

      If you have a HUD while playing try to include on your stats the "Ist to raise in EP", steal from CO, steal from Btn. This will allow you to see how different opponents act on an unopened pot.

      If for example you see that somebody raises from the button 90 of the times then your 3betting range from the SB/BB will be much wider against him.

      Also check 6max videos here on the site, lots of good stuff to get info from.

      All the best,

      Nick
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Hi Nick,

      Thanks for your reply. You gave a couple of good ideas as well.

      I used only Total Steal stat on FR tables, maybe I should go in more details SH. Regarding 1st to Raise EP, I think generally VPIP and PR can answer most of your questions about opponent's open range, but if you have some extra room in your HUD (I use like 18 slots), might be handy.

      Yeah, I see what you are saying, open-limping gives us neither position nor initiative most of the time. Still, what about overlimping marginal hands in late positions with a couple of limpers before you? I feel like isolating with these hands (connectors, suited aces, 22-55) is not particularly good, because we gonna play against the same range postflop, and the only aggression we can show is semi-bluffing if we hit a draw (but then, they could have hit it as well).

      Another reason why it seems unlikely that good players don't limp at all, because in this case their PR would be exactly the same as their VPIP (and I read somewhere that even in SH PR is about 2/3 of VPIP, but not exactly the same).

      Regards,

      Th334
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by Th334
      Hi Nick,

      Thanks for your reply. You gave a couple of good ideas as well.

      I used only Total Steal stat on FR tables, maybe I should go in more details SH. Regarding 1st to Raise EP, I think generally VPIP and PR can answer most of your questions about opponent's open range, but if you have some extra room in your HUD (I use like 18 slots), might be handy.

      Yeah, I see what you are saying, open-limping gives us neither position nor initiative most of the time. Still, what about overlimping marginal hands in late positions with a couple of limpers before you? I feel like isolating with these hands (connectors, suited aces, 22-55) is not particularly good, because we gonna play against the same range postflop, and the only aggression we can show is semi-bluffing if we hit a draw (but then, they could have hit it as well).

      Another reason why it seems unlikely that good players don't limp at all, because in this case their PR would be exactly the same as their VPIP (and I read somewhere that even in SH PR is about 2/3 of VPIP, but not exactly the same).

      Regards,

      Th334
      Open limping is a bad idea. Your was better off folding 67s UTG then limping it. Raising 67s UTG is also fine if you feel comfortable with your postflop skills.

      Overlimping however is perfectly fine since your likely going to see a cheap flop with speculative hand with at least 1 fish in the pot(limpers are fish 95% of the time). Especially completing the SB is really a good play since you get at least 5:1 on your money if not even better odds so calling with just about anything will be profitable even if you play fit or fold.

      Generally when deciding either to overlimp or raise it up you can use limp/fold stat. Basically if someone is limp/folding like 50% then raising with your 67s is way better since there's a good chance you'll take it down preflop. Also a stat you have to check is his fold to c-bet. By raising it up you will have initiative and will be able to take down an even bigger pot with a c-bet.

      Basically if someone is never limp folding and has a fold2cbet of 20% your better off limping behind anything you don't consider to be a value hand against his range. On the other hand if someone is limp/folding 30% of the time and then folding to c-bet 60% of the time then just raise it up.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by Th334


      I used only Total Steal stat on FR tables, maybe I should go in more details SH. Regarding 1st to Raise EP, I think generally VPIP and PR can answer most of your questions about opponent's open range, but if you have some extra room in your HUD (I use like 18 slots), might be handy.

      You have to use steal % to determine his range. The best way to go about it is to have a line with steal % for CO/BU/SB.

      PFR is usually correct when it comes to UTG(since noone opened before you) but its pretty much useless on the BU. For example my VPIP on the BU is about 30% but my stealing range is about 60%. This happens because when i have 79o on the BU i will pretty much always steal with that hand, but i will not call it when someone opens before me(which is way it won't count torwards my VPIP)

      Stealing is the most accurate way to determine his range for stealing when his first to act.
    • elchipriota
      elchipriota
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2012 Posts: 438
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Originally posted by Th334


      I used only Total Steal stat on FR tables, maybe I should go in more details SH. Regarding 1st to Raise EP, I think generally VPIP and PR can answer most of your questions about opponent's open range, but if you have some extra room in your HUD (I use like 18 slots), might be handy.

      You have to use steal % to determine his range. The best way to go about it is to have a line with steal % for CO/BU/SB.

      PFR is usually correct when it comes to UTG(since noone opened before you) but its pretty much useless on the BU. For example my VPIP on the BU is about 30% but my stealing range is about 60%. This happens because when i have 79o on the BU i will pretty much always steal with that hand, but i will not call it when someone opens before me(which is way it won't count torwards my VPIP)

      Stealing is the most accurate way to determine his range for stealing when his first to act.
      +1

      I use 1st to Raise EP, Steal CO,Steal btn. I disagree that PFT and VPIP can provide the same amount of detail, especially SH. I for example have an average of 25 PFR over 10k hands but my EP pfr is only 8-9 while from the button can reach to 85 to some sessions. On the other hand I see some people in the games I play which for some reason they have a 20+ PFR EP and a Fold to 3bet of 90. That is free pocket money if you can make the right observations and the right 3bet :f_cool:

      If you have callers before you go ahead and call with good odds. Personally I will tend to flat with my low pairs and iso raise weak passive players with suited connectos (basing my decision to raise on my stats) as I know I can exploit them postflop. If you do limp make a mental note in your head beforehand not to overplay the hand postflop as it can result costing you a ton of money.
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Thanks guys!

      I tweaked my HUD greatly (added limp/fold and broke down RFI to every position instead of stealing and PFR), plus now I'm pretty confident with limpers!

      It's even more than I expected from this thread :] Awesome!

      I think I finally found my poker format, love SH. Three-bet all these fishy TAGs with any two! :s_p: (well, kidding)
    • elchipriota
      elchipriota
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2012 Posts: 438
      Th if you are interested add me on the community tool and we can work together on 6max cash since I am there myself.

      All the best,

      Nick